I’ve had the chance to ride all three major groupset on the market for a reasonable amount of time now and I love and hate things about each of them. Since we spend many intimate hours with our groupset we have a very close relationship with it. I’m hoping that we can settle the groupset debate once and for all here.
I can say that I like Campy’s crisp, solid, chunky feel. Campy has created a passionate fanbase equivalent to Apple geeks. I’ve even seen people with Campagnolo tattoos. They say that Campy wears-in while other groupsets wear-out.
Shimano has excellent reliability, great engineering and innovation and has electrified the groupset. They hold nearly 90% of the entire world’s cycling component market and 97%+ the worlds OEM market (not sure how current that it). They turn over US$1billion in bike components. How could they not be good with numbers like that? They also make a kick-ass fishing reel.
SRAM is the new kid on the block and is making unbelievable ground. It has great ergonomics and a shifting mechanism that works great. They also bought Zipp last year. They’re aggressively and successfully taking away market share from Campy and Shimano and have even switched over a guy named Lance. And Lance has been known to be fairly pedantic about his equipment.
So fellow riders, how do you define groupset perfection?
{ 105 comments }
I use Shimano purely because it’s the most popular. If I need a wheel at a race there’s definitely going to be a spare one with a Shimano cassette. If I’m in a small town and I need a spare part – they’ll definitely carry Shimano. Plus aftermarket replacement parts are a whole lot cheaper. Have you seen how much a campy record cassette costs???
Shimano all the way!
Maybe if you didn’t use a grupo that broke down and wore out all the time like Shimano then you wouldn’t ever have that problem!
Oh Jason, one day you are going to eat those words and they will taste about as good as chain lube.
One word – Innovation. Shimano pushes the boundaries and without them there would be no progress whatsoever.
Shimano invented indexed shifting and it took Campy 7 years to catch up. The biggest Campy innovation ever has been adding an extra gear in their 11 speed.
Shimano now has the Di2 electronic shifting. How long will it take Campy to respond to that?
“Shimano now has electronic shifting. How long will it take Campy to respond to that.”
The first electronic components were developed by Mavic and ridden in the 1992 Tour de France by the ONCE and RMO teams. Called the Zap Mavic System (ZMS), it launched publicly the following year allowing riders to adjust the rear derailleur using two small buttons mounted to a specially designed handlebar that also housed the battery system.
The following year Campagnolo started testing a similar system – the difference being that instead of relying on electromagnets to maneuver the derailleur, Campagnolo used a small actuator motor. This design was patented in Italy in 1994 and worldwide in 1996.
Both companies continued to refine their designs until 1999 when Mavic released their Mektronic system – the first ‘wireless’ system which integrated the computer, shifters and rear derailleur in a wire-free electronic system.
Campagnolo went one better later that year, releasing details of their first ever fully electronic groupset with both derailleurs being cable free and capable of both up and down shifts. The design was patented in early 1999 and first sighted in the pro peloton in late 2001 / early 2002.
“Shimano invented indexed shifting and it took Campy 7 years to catch up. The biggest Campy innovation ever has been adding an extra gear in their 11 speed.”
In 1999 Campagnolo released carbon ergo levers as part of their Record groupset.
In 2001 both the Record and Chorus groupsets came standard with carbon ergo levers.
In 2004 both the Record and Chorus groupsets came with a carbon crankset.
In late 2008 Shimano released their first hybrid carbon crankset (aluminum core wrapped in carbon).
In 2009 Shimano released their first Dura Ace groupset with STI levers manufactured with carbon fiber instead of forged aluminum.
Just out of curiosity, why didn’t Campy continue with their electronic shifting?
+1 on the electronic shifting
..but using new materials doesnt really mean “innovation”. shift faster?better? –Campy is behind the other 2, IMHO.
Well, there was that quick release idea that seems ro have caught on. I think Campag had a fair amount to do with the refinement of the deraileur. Both fairly central to the workings of the modern racing bike.
Since then, however I’d have to say Shimano has been more innovative. SRAM is going to push them both but I fear that will mean a pissing match over how many gears (11? really?) and gizmos that are harbingers of the robot uprising (Di2). God help neutral servce!
Until recently Shimano won the last 9 out of 10 TdF. Just sayin’
Gotta give SRAM some props. They make every other company look like they’re standing still.
I use and love Campy mainly for the way they shift and because of the hidden cabling which Shimano has only recently adopted. We also have Campy to thank for quick release hubs and the derailleur as we know it today. So while shimano are pushing the boundaries today Campy developed a lot of what we now take for granted.
As SRAM is a sponsor of my racing team and located just down the street in Chicago I’ll preach the Double Tap Gospel.
Truth be told- having used both Campy and Shimano previously I have found that in 3 years of riding and racing on SRAM Force I’ve had to adjust the grouppo but a few times, mostly when replacing cables or other heavy maintenance… that I never have to trim the derailleurs or adjust the shifting is proof positive… Plus they basically give it to us… ;)
I wonder what Hollywood will write under this blog…….I wait with baited breathe.
I wonder what Hollywood will write under this blog…….I wait with baited breath.
Until recentally I’ve always had Shimano and have just put Campy Record on my race bike and I love it, the hoods fit my hands no cabling to be seen making for a very neat bike front end the only thing that is taking a little getting used to is the way the gears are opperated I like the record system its just taking a bit of getting used to and only stuffed up one gear change in the first race……..glad it was a Road Race not a Crit.
pip
I have Shimano on Road bike and Sram on MTB. Both work well. Campy to expensive for me to try….
Remember mr Armstrong owns part of SRAM. He has to support his own product. The guy is more businessman than rider these days. Having said that SRAM red is much better than I expected. Fast smooth shifts. Very little lever travel required to change gears. Strong brakes.
Ergonomally, I can’t get campagnolo to work for my hands. I’m bigish at 6’2, but have overall small hands. I can’t get a position on bars I’m comfortable on to have a good drops position able to shift gears and that is comfortable up top on the hoods.
Shimano is fine, but a bit of a reach in the drops, and yet to try SRAM. Quite confident that SRAM Red will make the shortlist for my next bike.
It all depends on whether you are a boy racer or into the spirit, philosophy and aesthetic of cycling.
As someone who has a limited time to ride (I’m one of those 10-hr/week guys!!), reliability & cost are the overwhelming keys to my gruppo choices. And that’s why I go for Shimano…..
That said – I reckon Campy is aesthetically much more appealing (and not just because of the cable-free front end), and if I can ever afford some Italian lusciousness then it would be Campy all the way….
SRAM has me interested though – if it stands the test of time reliability wise, then I’d be tempted to give ita crack in a few years when I do my next gruppo upgrade…..
For 99% of us it comes back to the Law of diminishing returns. Like buying top end bikes all 3 no doubt do a solid enough job to get you through whatever riding and racing you can throw up.
Top pros change teams all the time and as a result change bikes and grupo providers – you don’t hear any of them saying I can’t win anymore because I don’t like the new shifters. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of money people will throw at equipment changes or upgrades in the hope of going a bit faster when all they need to do is pull a few more turns in training or eat a few less donuts! It’s not rocket surgery.
what he said
At last. One that speaks the TRUTH. It’s not about the bike(for those that need a “Lance Quote” for validation) or for that matter the shifters. And as far as this or that pro endorsing this, that or the next product goes, it means nothing as they ride what’s given to them and they say what they are paid to say. So Fabian Cancellara said in 2008 that Cervelo’s TT bike was the fastest there is and in 2009 he sat proudly on a Specialised. And was faster than the Cervelo Test Team lads… Oh and then a wee lad on a TREK TT won in Annecy. I guess it all boils down to the rider…
We have Campy on all our bikes, it does look better, but I’m not sure that 11 speed performs as well as 10 speed did. The big issue s that once you have invested in a few Campy wheelsets, its hard to ever make the switch to SRAM or Shimano (if you wanted to) without a big cost
Campy wheels with a Shimano/SRAM set-up work fine together and visa versa. The only incompatibility is the cassette, a Campy one won’t fit on a Shimano hub, but a Shimano chain with work with Campy cassette … and visa versa.
Make mine a SRAM Force. My last two bikes were Campy and I love my SRAM Force (Like Steffo says below “with Shimano chain & cassettes”). SRAM is like the love child of Campy mating with Shimano (Shimano is the feminine), it has the best of both brands.
Physically speaking, I’d liken Campy to the feminine quality. It’s sleek, slender, efficient, and beautiful. Shimano, on the other hand, is big, chunky, and often smells bad.
And let’s also not forget how much more expensive Campy, is compared to Shimano, as a defining feature of its femininity.
Zing!
Have recently moved from Shimano SL to SRAM Red. First difference I noticed was the lack of refine silky movements with SRAM, it’s fast, it’s light, it’s accurate – but it’s not ergonomic and can be unforgiving on a lazy tap-tap days. Shimano SL (although not apples to apples) was silkier and fit my bear like grip much better. For a newby on the road block, SRAM is well wicked and sure to make ground on Campy. My next purchase though will be the Durace Electronic.
I recently bought a SRAM Red groupy after using dura ace. Never again will I waste my money on such rubbish. I’m 58 kg, know how to adjust derailleurs properly yet every time i get out of the saddle, the big chainring flexes to rub on the derailleur. Every time I change my wheels, i have to re-adjust the rear derailleur because one freehub is about half a mm differently spaced to another and SRAM wont shift, shimano does. Moreover, refer back to 58kg, and consider the chain snapping after four rides. Maybe these problems just come from a dodgy batch of product, but if I am paying that much for a product, I care much more about having it work every time when I am racing hard than ceramic bearings, 20 grams of weight or looking good. I’ll be back to shimano with the next bike, it simply doesnt screw up. As for campy, i’m not a huge fan, but thats probably because ive never had long enough on a groupset to get used to it. Plus, its too expensive for any benefits that I can see.
Im with you Snowy, I bought a full SRAM red Gruppo, and it was appalling. Ended up with the bike shop telling me (the same people that sold it to me- LBS argument again) to replace the cables, the cranks, the cassette and chain, and tell me that the chainrings were worn out after 2000 kms!!. The front mech had to be replaced with a Force front mech as the RED one flexed so much it actually hit the cranks while I was racing. So their was pretty much nothing left of the gruppo except the rear mech and shifters. I know how to tune and care for a bike, and none of this was due to poor care. The LBS had no idea how to tune it, they got the SRAM rep in to tune it and when I suggested they take it back as it wasnt fit for the purpose they sold it to me for, they suggested I put it on ebay, cos they werent interested in backing the product up. All this after years of faithful service from Record Gruppos, which still IMHO are the best on the market. SRAM shift action was cool, but the LBS backup, and the hopeless lack of strength in their parts makes it hard to justify the price.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sram-issues-powerlock-voluntary-recall
I have been lucky enough to race on all 3 brands. For me I choose SRAM but with Shimano chains and cassettes. The great thing about SRAM is that I would be happy to race on any one of their groups whereas Shimano I would only ride duraace and Campy record or chorus
SRAM good
Ergonomics
Compatibility
Weight
Price
Gear lever throw length
Crispness
SRAM bad
Chains and cassettes
Shimano good
Electronics
Smooth light feel
Chains and cassettes
Shimano bad
excessive shift lever throw length
External cables on lower groups
General uncoolness
Sora-105
Campy good
Italian
11speed
History
Prestige
Crisp gears
Campy bad
Price
Thumb shifters
Not compatible with other groups
I’d be happy to race on Sram Red aswell…..considering it costs as much as Ultegra at some places….
Well i couldn’t choose which is best so i have a little of everything on my bike. SRAM shifters/derailers, Campag record cranks and shimano chain+cassette. Works like a charm and shifts great and looks sweet.
When i become an old man and buy my custom Ti frame it will deff have campag on it…. just for the looks.
I have only rode on Dura – ace and Red.
I prefer the look and feel of Red but operating and functioning of Dura ace seems to be much better.
Interesting to read the negative feedback on SRAM Red as I have heard this from several others and was waiting to see what people would post here.
I’ve had nothing but good experiences with SRAM. My only complaint was that the front derailleur throw was too far and I would mis-shift a lot when I was trying to put it in the big ring and my fingers would slip off the shifter. They’ve fixed it now on all models so that it’s an easier throw and there’s a trim adjustment on the front.
I’ve hardly ever had to make an adjustment. Works like a charm for me.
Still, I prefer the Campy front derailleur shifting, but still really like SRAM’s double tap on the rear. Would be nice to mix them but I think the incongruence would do my head in!
I tried the Dura Ace Di2 last year and it was phenomenal. I’d use it in a heartbeat if I could afford it. There’s a link to my thoughts on it in the article above.
you wont hear from Hollywood on this subject yet … he is busy at the paint shop looking for flouro yellow touch up paint …..
He’s off the the beautician this weekend to have his toenails painted red/yellow.
Just finished the Campy to SRAM Red Grouppo changeover so will have to let you know my thoughts after racing it!
Campy definitely “wears in” so will be interested to see the durability of the Red in comparison, but at this stage it looks and feels great. Love the double-tap, great trim capability on the levers, good coverage of the cassette on the big change ring, solid brakes…. will checkout the flex of the front mech described above on tomorrow’s ride (hills) though??
Top post CT but would have loved this 3 weeks ago when making my recent purchase decision :) Fantastic input from passionate and real cyclists, no better spot on the web
Eddie, trim the front mech so that it NEARLY overshifts on the outside when changing to the big ring. The issue with the Ti RED mech is the flex on changing to the big dog, it bend outwards. So if you have it set up tending toward the outside to start off with, it dosent catch so hard when making the change. The Pro teams actually spec a Steel RED front mech, which is a Force one with a different sticker on it. Hope that helps
CT, this looks like a topic designed to generate your largest ever number of comments, and page views too! You certainly got me.
The “Support your LBS” post struck quite a chord with many people. So much so that I was trying to put out the fire by putting up more posts to bury it! There’s still people commenting and conversing in it. Great topic that I learned lots about.
I was actually expecting more senseless trash talk with this post but there are mostly excellent comments in here. Great to see!
A split decision; Shimano feels smoother in gear changes, brake application etc. but i have super record hubs from the 80′s that have never been serviced and are still going great!
Electronic gears? I dont get it. Save the planet and use your fingers.
I like the idea of Campy. Looks great, history, Italian-ness, exclusivity. However I have never gelled with the way it worked. I owned some campy gear years ago and I did a stint working in a bike shop during my uni days and campy was always quite a bit trickier to get set up right. In my opinion/experience, it is more sensitive to any dirt/wear etc (this is why their attempt at a MTB grouppo was a complete disaster) and sometimes there would be a mystery undiagnosable problem that required replacing sprockets, spacers, shifter mechs, holy water etc to sort out.
My fave grouppo? Easy: 7700 Dura Ace.. 9 speed. Still have it running on my old Scapin. Set up in 2002 and running like the day it was set up (replaced chain and cables a couple of times). I like the fat mechanical shift and classic looks. While I don’t do the kind of kays that CT does and avoid wet days, its proving the “wears out while campy wears in argument to be quite wrong”.
I will still probably buy Campy again though, just for the looks and emotion of it…
Someone might know this for sure: I think that the Shimano mechanism, in all its complexity, actually overshifts initially (moves derailleur further across than the next gear) then settles into the right spot. This allows the chain to hop across more definitely. I think Campy, being a simpler mechanism, just bangs into the next spot, thus requiring to be tuned more precisely to work properly. Anyone know for sure??
For me, Campy is the “nicest” to look at impress your friends- but hard to justify buying it over Shimano, especially if you already have shimano- lose the ability to change wheels etc between bikes etc. A good example are the carbon cranks- they look lovely, but they’re no lighter..
Now on the topic of justification- can someone please convince me why I should buy Dura Ace over Ultegra? (talking only groupset, not wheels)
I am 100% a Campag man, there is not much good to have come out of the USA, and if I wanted to catch fish I would buy something made by Shimano, but definitely not for my bike.
I have just invested in the new Campag 11 speed, and after 2 rides on it I am ecstatic! It shifts beautifully and the definitive clunk you feel and hear when shifting is great.
It may be a little more expensive than the others, but the simple fact that your get a FOUR YEAR WARRANTY just shows how well made the product is. And it looks great, matches the shaved legs so it shows I must be a serious rider!!!
As for Hollywood, he looks like a McDonalds Restaurant on that thing!! Maybe he’s getting free Big Mac’s
bring on sram rival… most of the benefits of the top tiered red, minus the price tag and all the flexy parts. good enough to race on and cheap. use a different chain and you have an effective raceable gruppo.
Agree. Had this on my bike for a year and still works great.
I don’t care if your new Japanese sports car can burn up my ferrari over the quarter mile or if your american tank is fighting the war in iraq….campy looks better
And if you think it’ll make the difference in a race….think again and then go buy a better set of wheels or better still train harder!
NOS, Suntour Superbe Pro all the way baby!
Campy on European bikes and Sram/Shimano on the rest! A Colnago c50 with Durace! YUCK!!
Agree with pmark1bike…Euro / Italian bikes must be equipped with Campy. I’ve had CBT Italia and Pinarello Dogma running Campy and that makes the physical / spiritual package complete and coherent. Just now getting a Specialized Roubaix and will “allow” Shimano to come back onboard. Today, equipment is good all around and it’s a matter of taste, brand-fidelity and historical sensitivity. The man on the bike makes it go, not the gruppo.
Cheers and tight shifts,
David
Too hard to pronounce Sram and Campagnolo, So Shimano it must be!
SRAM red chains break easy…. 3 in a month and I am by no means a power house, dura ace chain and the thing is silky smooth… :)
Don’t forget that Campy levers are serviceable – I’ve got a set of Chorus levers on a training/commuting bike that must have done 100,000k over the years. The index springs and return springs are easy enough to replace and the lever is as crisp and precise as the day I got it!
I’ve got a dusty box filled with discarded shimano levers that made it through a year or two (or a crash) and are done for…
**Purloined from Bikesnob, but true:
Which is NOT an actual reason given by Campagnolo press manager Francesco Zenere for his company’s move to 11 speed?
–”Why not?”
–”Cyclists are never truly happy whether they are professionals or amateurs.”
–”The extra cog offers smoother transitions between gears, allowing competitive riders to maintain optimal cadence in a variety of terrain.”
–”The 11th speed is in fact the icing, while the cake is the remarkable makeover of the three groupsets dedicated to competition use.”
See for answer:
http://velonews.com/article/77895/tech-report-the-campagnolo-11-speed-super-record-group
From 7800 i have just started riding Sram Force.
Awsome!
Only thing has been the cassette (I have used a KMC chain from the outset), I couldn’t get it to quiet down. It wouldn’t skip or anything, but just wouldn’t shut up! Changed wheels and and it just happened to have an Ultegra cassette on, SILENCE!
Even without being cheaper and lighter, Force over Dura Ace for me.
Mind you, never had the pesos to Campy.
Where are the days on Huret, Simplex, TA , Suntour and so on, when durability wasn’t a vague word.
um… no deraillleur, no problem shifting.
Campagnolo is so far ahead of Spam and Shimano. Brand new Dura Ace would still not run as well as 10 year old Veloce.
Shimano has no sole, its cold, ugly and insipid. I have never ridden Spam so I cant comment with any real conviction. I can’t stand the way Sham changes.
Campagnolo is like a Porshe, smooth, fast, stylish and sexy. Shimano is like a Toyota Yaris and Spam like a Hyndui.
You cant talk and write all you want the truth is if you dont have Campagnolo you probably wish you did.
Campagnolo has been testing thier electronic group set for over 5 years and I bet it will be so far ahead of Shimano and I bet it wont have that great big ugly battery.
While Campagnolo wears in Shimano wears out and Spam falls apart.
tell that to my 1 year old record cranks that snapped in half
replaced with ultegra
My Campy Pista stuff is the only truly reliable bike parts I’ve ever used. Damn thing won’t go uphill with a 50×14 though!
i did see sram break apart this year… all the way to three podium places at tdf. sounds good enough for me
In response to the argument that Sram swept the podium, the riders took the podium. They just happened to be riding Sram. Of course Sram wants to put that argument out there, but those guys could have ridden any of these three component groups and probably would have ended up exactly where they were at the end of the race.
Come on. Winning races has nothing to do with what groupset you use.
So when Big Mig was winning TdFs or Pantani doing a Giro/TdF double, then Shimano sucked and Campagnolo was the only pro race worthy groupset?
I am an Italian rider and I ride Campagnolo, because I think they make great components (and also because I am Italian). Having said that, even here in Italy, when people ask me what they should ride, I suggest that they try out the ergonomics of all three players in the market and choose what they are most comfortable with.
Enough balanced discussion: you have to admit that Campagnolo looks best in terms of all three groups. SRAM simply looks cheap. And Shimano, well, it is not exactly aesthetically pleasing…
Friends dont sell friends Shimano!
I think the Super Record group is by far the sexiest group out there. My only negative from riding Campy is the thumb shifter. But that is a personal opinion.
I switched to Sram Red and really do love the way it works. As far as looks go, Sram has grown on me.
However, I would switch back to Campy in heart beat if they took their head out of their own ass and made the spare part prices more realistic.
Bike Now on Kings Way set my SRAM red – and it’s sweeeet. Use a Durace chain all is sorted.
I have just dressed a new bike in Campy record, I used it on the previous bike and was ‘happy enough’. Perhaps I am fortunate enough to afford it as apart from price complaints there has been nothing here that would make me switch……..and so I remain content with my choice.
I’m pretty simple, one mechanism for down and another mechanism for up – well spaced from one another, that simple logic took me there in the first place…..what is there to revolutionise about something so simple?
Push the button down, get a higher gear, accelerating out of the saddle – it couldn’t be easier, I still have major purchase on the hood and it moves beautifully with each precise ‘click’.
Again, fortunately the ergo hoods fit my hands.
Aesthetically, I find a carbon crank and derailleur way sexier than those big thick carbon tractor wheels – it looks like a bike should!!!!
Finally, how can you rate something that has to be bastardised in order to function properly, that’s rubbish – put your hand up if you’ve bought a Ford only to run a Holden motor in it in order to be able to use it properly????
Sorry, but where’s the ‘simple logic’? Using that logic also supports ShimaNO. What’s logical about changing gears with a brake lever?
And when was the last time you drove a car (or anything else for that matter) with two separate shit devices? Maybe Alfa Romeo are deveoping an manual gear shift with an up-shift device operated by the driver’s elbow? Sorry, I must disagree. After 10yrs on Campy, coming out of the last corner the thumb shift only ever let me ‘dump a bunch of changes’ (on to the 11 sprocket) whereas SRAM has a finesse that provides (me) with pin-point shifting.
And if fits my hands like a glove. After suffering Campy ergos (there aint nutin’ ergo(nomical) about Campy ergos) for so long I was instantly converted to SRAM by the hoods alone. ShimaNO? Pfffft! What else can we expect from a Japanese manufacturer except to integrate joysticks into its design.
Campagnolo – if you’re a poser
Shimano – if you’re a non-Pro
SRAM – if you’re SMART
Sorry Whopper, for me, the logic was in the two mechanisms being ‘well spaced from one another’……UNLIKE shimano, one is on the side of the hood and one is at the front – 10 years would demonstrate that???
How long ago was your instant sram conversion?
The new campy hoods are substantially different to even last years model…..and i would call one click one shift pin-point…..and still be able to dump a bunch. And the shift mechanism has also improved.
Obviously things change with development time and eventually Sram will get the chains and rings correct, won’t happen over night but it will happen, until then, like someone driving a BMW or and Audi – I’ll have to keep posing.
… interesting Dezza how you would use two German brands to pose in the automotive world. Your convictions seem somewhat shakey.
Bahaha, I drive a BA Ford Falcon, but we all know someone who drives a 10 year old Euro motor – why, other than for the badge…..the analogy was to demonstrate how easily we can call people posers simply for their choice. To label someone a ‘poser’ as was done, which is a shame in such a small field……well it’s a whole other thread and possibly implicates anyone with a carbon bike or wheelset.
Know anyone who rides either of them……well aren’t they posers, lol??
I could have gone with Ferrari but they are beyond the average reach and i’m just flat out envious of those people……….with a Ferrari comes big tits!!
Thanks CT, I think in future I’ll stick to the ringside seat.
And my apologise to anyone that drives a Euro car.
Dezza, don’t so so precious. all was delivered with tounge-in-cheek. . . after all, consider my history with Campy . . . and the fact I drive an Alfa Romeo ;)
Lots of juvenile comments here wihich is disappointing. It should be clear to anyone that thinks about it that the best gruppo is the one with the biggest tits.
I recently changed around my ten speed Shimano Ultegra 6600 cassettes from a 12/25 to a 12/27 without so much a single tweek to the rear derailer. Cleaned and re-lubricated the chain. Runs and changes gears like silk first time. Enough said.
The Italian design of Capagnolo may be easthetically superior to Sram’s value for money. But for all round performance Shimano appears marginally ahead, though not by much.
Still… none of you guys have convinced me either way. Thanks FS, you’ve made the most sense so far.
I think at the end of the day there is not one groupset better than the other just different and some suit different people based on aesthetics, feel etc. Most things people mentioned here are purely subjective and base on individual opinion.
Pierre – I think your closing statement pretty much says it best. The final decision is: we all agree to disagree! It sure was fun reading the comments though. Another topic that people feel quite passionately about.
It’s a bit like debating Jesus and Allah. No one has ever agreed in over 2000 years of trying. Hopefully it never comes to millions being killed in the name of Campy. ;-)
— Just got my first road bike ever: all carbon frame/fork with SRAM Rival… I love it, but I admit that I have nuthin’ to compare it to.
I have a new Cervelo R3.
I use RIVAL shifters and derailleurs with a DURA-ACE 7800 drive line ( crank,cassette,chain) . It works PERFECT and is light, cheap and clean. It shifts like a robot and is really quiet. I got the stiffness and silence of Dura-Ace with the cleanliness and precision of Sram.
For me it’s SHIMANO and SRAM.
I too made swapped from Dura Ace to Red and would agree with a lot of what others have said.
It’s great, and I think I’m sold on it (my next winter trainer will definitely be kitted out in Rival), BUT….
Their chain/cassette combo IS noisy (when the chain needs replacing I shall be fitting a KMC chain), although the finest of adjustments of the rear mech can improve this. Although my overall experience is better than Snowy’s (Comment 29), I do have to agree about the wheel swapping thing: when I change from my Zipps to my DT Swiss wheels (both have Red cassettes), I have to ratchet the rear derailleur 7 or 8 quarter turns to get it to shut up. This would obviously be less than ideal in a race situation.
Other than that, it works supremely well. The “positive feel” (or “clunkiness”, as I like to think of it) took some getting used to after years of Dura Ace, but I love it now. Shifts particularly well under load.
There’s my tuppence worth!
Great to see feedback from those who are lucky enough to have ridden all 3 groupo’s.
I went to the FELT bikes 2010 release last week. The new season Ultegra
is a silver version of Dura-ace. It looks, rides and feels fantastic.
Great read guy’s / girl’s
Good job Wade.
shimano, campy or sram, if you pay $2000+ for a groupset it is smooth and solid and flawless.
but then again…shimano ftw
Just as I wouldn’t buy a Toyota Camry or a Giant bike, I wouldn’t buy Shimano. Who wants to be a sheep. Just because they have the biggest chunk of the market, doesn’t make them good…. or stylish, for that matter.
Campag. Everything else is rubbish.
Oh and steel bikes only.
How many di2 shimano sold till now? rsrs
Any pro can win on any gear. Sram, Campag, Shimano-no top level groupet will impede your performance, with the exception perhaps of flexy ti FD.
I won't comment on Sram but to say that the shop I work at is a Campag dealer, and rubbishes on anything thats not Italian. Thats industry for you.
I have used a full 2010 105 gruppo and am making the shift to a mix of 10sp Reord and Chorus.
(My preferences)
Shimano-Good
Braking feels more powerful from the hoods and in the drops. More grab sooner, if you will.
Replacement parts are cheap.
Shimano-(What I don't like)
Excessively soft up and down shifts. The mechanism does not feel as certain as I prefer, I would describe the feeling as vague. Also for the downshifts, you have to release the black lever for the shift to occur. Therefore slower then campag to put you into the next gear.
To keep brakes centered required a fair bit of post ride tweaking. I'm a pedantic SOB so even if it was 1mm out I'd fix it, so I can't call this a failing of shimano.
DISADVANTAGE:
Can't be rebuilt. You crash, get a new shifter. Can't get an identical one? Mismatched.
Campag-What I like (This is the older 10sp remember)
Shiting-instantaneous downshifting and the ability to dump the cassette.
Shifting-positive feel, you have no doubt as to the shift being completed.
FD Trim-I feel it is simply the best on the market. Multiple trim settings in the big and little ring, I don't have any rub in any combination-big big or even small small.
Aesthetics-It looks sweet.
Drivetrain responsiveness-ratcheting mech in the hub engages noticeably quicker the shimano offerings and the drivetrain (chain, front chainrings) are extremely stiff. Super responsive and feels very solid.
MAJOR ADVANTAGE:
If I crash and wreck my shifters, it will cost 100 bucks, not 300+ for a completely new unit. These can be serviced and rebuilt, other offerings cannot.
Campag-what I dont like.
Hood ergonomics. Not quite there, however will be swapping my internals for the new body with the new hoods.
The brakes-lever actuation ratio on these 10sp chorus shifters is not right, you cannot obtain the optimum mechanincal advantage so whilst there is better modulation then shimano, you need to squeeze a lot harder to get the same braking. I prefer shimano's offering in this respect, even the lowly 105.
Trying the new hoods will change the braking feel, as well as different aftermarket pads. I feel this may change my opinion on campag, and convert me completely. I will report back with my observations.
Mephisto, tell me more about your record cranks that snapped in half. I've just had my second set of near-new Record cranks snap in the same place. Campag are being evasive. What crankset was it? Where did it snap?
I started riding good bikes in 1972 and everyone one of them has been Campy equipped. I own a 72 Atalla Record which still has the original Neuvo Record gruppo on it. This bike is my “mudder” and every component still works well on it. Several years ago I restored my custom built Medici that I had purchased around 1977. I put the Super Record components back on it with a polised Super Record crank. The bike is like a piece of jewelery. It gets as much attention at club rides as anything made from carbon fiber. As I write this my DeRosa is being equipped with 11s Chorus. My best days as a rider are behind me but pride of ownership is something I can still enjoy. There is no doubt in my mind that any one of these groups will perform at a pro level but ten years from now only one grouppo will be worth anything and that's Campy
I like SRAM. Everytime I read the “Shimano invented this” and “Campy invented that” pissing match I think: “These idiots are buying the product based on who used to innovate more, even though they've all copied these innovations by now?” I'm glad SRAM has come in to make the point that Shimano and Campy sell a product that's not that hard to make and not worth what they've been charging.
As for electronic: Di2 is digital and electronic. I don't think Zap or Mektronic waited for gates and ramps to move the derailer. That's the interesting part. I think Shimano should get kudos for Di2. And SRAM should ship a competitor for a reasonable price.
bradenm,
SRAM sells their shifters in, IIRC, 7 different assemblies. One of those is the brake lever and shifter paddle: The part you might brake in a crash.
I believe it's just Shimano that considers their shifters to be the holy of holies.
My SRAM chain failed last year when I was motorpacing. I was riding at about 58kph or 35mph and was getting ready to hit my last gear when my chain suddenly SNAPPED!!! It blew apart and the main body actually rode up and wrapped around my pelvis and lower back. I barely managed to stay up. It was the top of the line SRAM chain. This mechanical failure almost killed me. I will never use SRAM or any SRAM product again
My SRAM chain failed last year when I was motorpacing. I was riding at about 58kph or 35mph and was getting ready to hit my last gear when my chain suddenly SNAPPED!!! It blew apart and the main body actually rode up and wrapped around my pelvis and lower back. I barely managed to stay up. It was the top of the line SRAM chain. This mechanical failure almost killed me. I will never use SRAM or any SRAM product again
Not to be too pedantic, but the concept of 'Allah' would be more comparable to 'God' as Jesus exists as a prophet in Islam.
The hierarchy is as follows:
God – Allah – Dura-Ace – Super Record
Jesus – Issa – Ultegra – Record
Abraham – Ibrahim – Tiagra – Chorus.
Also, Islam has only been around for around 1500 years, whereas Campy has been around forever.
The biggest campy innovation has been adding and extra gear? I thought Campy was responsible for inventing the modern rear derailleur?
Yes, an older thread…but this is a debate that will go on forever, so I figure I'll chime in. I actually found this thread since I am currently building a new racing bike (stock Shimano), but having it refitted with all Campy Record.
Have not ridden SRAM, but have used Ultegra and Centaur. Currently use Campy Centaur. Beyond the personal aesthetics of Campagnolo, the Campy hoods simply fit my hands better, and I actually like the thumb shifter on Campy, which is a well-thought out, large platform (in contrast to the little nub on Sora). The thumb shifter serves me well during a break or sprint, allowing me to shift easily from the drops or throw down when I'm out of the saddle.
As has been stated, the ability to move through multiple cogs at once is a trait I like about Campy.
I know some feel that Campy is clunky in its shifting (whereas Shimano…and I guess SRAM…has a silky, smooth feeling); for me, the positive 'clunk' emphasizes the shift…I think of it as the Campy groupset talking to me and saying 'Attack'!!! You definitely know when you shift–you can hear it, and you can feel a slight 'something' from the rear; this is not to be interpreted, however, as sluggish or inadequate shifting. Campy shifts consistently and precisely (as did my Ultegra), but with a more responsive, positive feel (personal viewpoint).
Yes, the aftermarket for US-based Campy is more difficult. Cassettes, chains, cables…just about every component is at a higher pricepoint for Campy, compared to similar level Shimano or SRAM. I actually have both Shimano (true TT bike) and Campy (road bike); for me, though, there really isn't a wheel issue, since I run 66mm deep-dish on the TT (which would not really be useful for the road bike; though I have once lamented this wheel incompatibility for a technical TT course where I used my road bike).
Overall, I'm happy with Campy and don't foresee me switching back to Shimano (or having any real reason to try SRAM). The hood shape of Campy (though current Shimano is similar), the thumb shifter, the positive shifting, the multiple cog-shifts, the aesthetics all have me in the Campy camp. The only negative is the wheel incompatibility issues…but then again, a broad Campy wheelmarket exists in the US, and it really isn't difficult to find Campy wheels (though it can be financially distressing to have to buy sets specific to each group setup).
you Campy guys are all huge dorks and i'll bet most of your bellies touch your top tube even with your $290 Italian bib shorts on.
j/k
DA lite works great for me…I couldn't possibly justify spending any more money on a gruppo. Oh btw, it's on an Italian bike too. That's gotta hurt some feelings out there.
Listen, enjoy your equipment. Shimano makes great stuff. But please try and have something intelligent to say the next time you post.
I am that old guy! I just turned 47 and I bought a Lynskey R230 Ti frame with an Edge Composites 2.0 fork and a Campy Chorus drivetrain. Super smooth and flawless gearing. What more could an old guy like me want?
I also have a mix of Shimano 105 & Ultegra on my cyclocross bike and it works very well too. I've never ridden SRAM but I know the stuff must work reasonably well…I think there are seven SRAM teams in Le Tour this year.
I'm sure all three groupos work very well and most of this sectarianism seems a little silly to me.
I think I had the first index shifters,it was on my “Peugeot Comete sprint” and that was back in 1988/89 not the STI levers but the down tube ones,,,they were by shimano.
I'm just getting back on my bike after a long time,so I'm looking at getting a new groupset,always rode shimano but thinking about sram,,can someone explain this double tap thing please,,,sorry if its obvios but thought i would ask.
Been riding/racing 20 years.
Only ever a Shimano user so I can't compare Campy/Sram to Shimano, but I've progressed from 105 downtube levers, Ultegra 600, DuraAce 7700, and now using Di2, (I missed 7800).
I could never go back to cable shifting.
Once you've ridden it, you'll understand. Shimano completely changed the rule book with this stuff.
The only comparisons left for are who's eletronic shifters are best? There is currently no fight, no comparisons to be made,
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