Australian Cycling Needs A System For Grading

I emailed CA about this very issue a fortnight ago. If golf can do it, so can cycling.

Every club event has to upload results to the database after every race. That was it stops people sandbagging events like the Tour of Bright.

Great post. Maybe someone in CA will see this. It's such a simple thing to implement. DB with php/html front end, they can run a mySQL server all free/openware. Be piece of cake to implement. Bit of training for clubs. Hell results can be done that way rather than the ad hoc and error prone way it's done now.

I think this is a great idea. I'm fairly new to racing, and I jumped in at D-grade, which might be where I belong experience-wise. Unfortunately, it was a bit of a sand-bag experience, which is surely demoralising for the other riders.

Alternatively in C-grade, I'm in no way towards the bottom of the pack performance-wise, but I feel that I am not as skilled as the guys I'm competing with. A clearer system of progression would be of benefit to riders at all levels, allowing a smoother improvement in racing experience.

Yep – and it's not just to provide for controlled progression, but also to prevent people dropping down from a higher grade to a lower grade deliberately (or otherwise) to win events.

I like the progression angle though. Very good.

Why don't you put something together, Wade, and send it to CA?

Like I said, the Golf Australia model is very, very good.

As a racer in the United States I can vouch for how the system is well-organized. In my seasons racing I've moved up to Cat 3 and have seen all the lower-category (Cat-4 and Cat-5) racing. Moving up from Cat-5 (very beginner) to Cat-4 is based solely on completing 10 mass-start events, basically just getting some experience riding in a competitive environment. From then on you have to accrue points based on finishing positions. After recent USA Cycling changes, the number and depth of points available depend on two things: category and race size (fewer participants = fewer points on offer).

One of the best things in our system, in my opinion, is that your points for moving up a category must be earned within a single calendar year. Consistency is key here, and you must generally race lots to do this, especially in Cat-3 and higher categories.

I hope that the system in Australia cleans up in the near future. Til then, happy racing.

It'd be great to have an open and transparent grading system and particularly greater sophistication in recording and reporting results. Great to see ToB is using transponders and making results available online almost instantaneously. For an extra $5 they'll even SMS your placing and time to your mobile. It kind of annoys me that if you don't finish in the top 3 (or 5), it's like you never raced at all. I still don't know how it can take so long to post race results online either – road racing clubs/organisations need to get with the times! I'm looking at you Northern Combine…

What does sandbagging mean???

I do not see why this would be so hard to get up and running considering as above golf and previously when i did it competition archery use similar systems to group competitiors. I have noticed the discrepincy mainly in the crits it seems you just race the grade depending on how you feel on the day

Take a look at a club like Caulfield-Carnegie … try and bluff the lady who takes entries and you will find a system that works. no sandbagging there !

sandbagging – When a player in any game chooses (on purpose) to not play their best. Normally this is because they are too superior, they want to hustle you, or they are too lazy to play their best with nothing on the line.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=…

I think one could easily separate A grade into two as well. A grade in this country is made of semi pro riders and very good riders who work full time. The later tend to move in and out of A or B at an open level, whilst the semi pro riders (most) obviously are pushing the envelope to ride overseas. I find that at this level most are honest about what they can and cant do in terms of performance. There is no where to hide in this level, if you dont have the goods then your race can be over very quickly.

The real problem in my opinion is in the lower grades where riders for all sorts of reasons move in and out of grades. It is here where you also get the largest amount of transience as most new riders can be found here. It is at these lower grades where a grading system such as the one used in NA can be of great benefit. Having said that even in A grade, many would appreciate not having to get smashed by budget fork lifts and instead race against other lads who pretty much do this as a hobby… obsession, passion :)

We have a category system here in the UK, 4-3-2-1-Elite. The amount of points needed goes up and up but you can gain more points racing at a higher level. For instance, winning an E12 race will net you 30 points or more, but winning a cat34 race will get you 10pts. You need to be consistent over the season as to get from 2nd to 1st cat you require 200pts and you are largely racing against elite and 1st category riders. It is about 300 for an elite license. Once you have achieved these then you need a certain amount of points to maintain your category the following year – although this is less than needed to attain the category in the 1st place.
It does make racing fairer and more competitive – I'm pretty shocked you have such a free-for-all in Oz!

We have a category system here in the UK, 4-3-2-1-Elite. The amount of points needed goes up and up but you can gain more points racing at a higher level. For instance, winning an E12 race will net you 30 points or more, but winning a cat34 race will get you 10pts. You need to be consistent over the season as to get from 2nd to 1st cat you require 200pts and you are largely racing against elite and 1st category riders. It is about 300 for an elite license. Once you have achieved these then you need a certain amount of points to maintain your category the following year – although this is less than needed to attain the category in the 1st place.
It does make racing fairer and more competitive – I'm pretty shocked you have such a free-for-all in Oz!

It has to be done for so many good reasons – as per your post Wade and the other well-worded responses – but also for the greater good of the sport, especially the amateur ranks. With the relatively cheap pervasive technology available today it's a no-brainer (in some cases it's just a once-off cost for the cyclist (a timing chip)). Why don't we make this a 2010 objective? I'm happy to give my time as part of a working group!

It has to be done for so many good reasons – as per your post Wade and the other well-worded responses – but also for the greater good of the sport, especially the amateur ranks. With the relatively cheap pervasive technology available today it's a no-brainer (in some cases it's just a once-off cost for the cyclist (a timing chip)). Why don't we make this a 2010 objective? I'm happy to give my time as part of a working group!

maybe from hot air balloons carrying sandbags as ballast? drop the bags and we fly!!

Would help. I turned up for a CyclingNSW race. My third ever race, travelled 3 hours to get there. Should be riding C Grade. Get put in A Elite, for no apparent reason. I asked to go lower and even had people in Elite tell them to put me down. Lasted half a lap. What a waste of time. Won't be going back to that event.

Don't get tied up in the technical details – mysql/php/freeware – engrave the info on the back of a dolphin for all I care. The important part is getting all parties to agree to move forward with the idea of the overhaul first.

Part of convincing the authorities is putting forward a cogent and cohesive proposal/memo/brain dump outlining:
The Problem
The Solution
Cost-Benefit

The goal of my post was to show that it could be done cheap and easy, if the authorities have the werewithal.

What can I tell you. I'm an ideas and details man. The info is there now anyway.

Cheers

Cycling Qld (CQ) has attempted to 'get strict' on handicapping for Open events over the last couple of years. Now, you are actually allocated an Open grading (eg, I am Masters C). Everyone's grading is listed on a massive spreadsheet on the CQ website, so all teh clubs can access it. You can only get moved up or down by the CQ Handicapper based on results, or by submitting a written request….

When you enter an Open race, the online entry system generally only let's you enter in your published grade (except for handicaps & mixed grade races).

Some clubs run a similar system I know my club (Balmoral CC) has a VERY strict grading list for their Murarrie Crits. You can't move up or down a grade without explicit permission from the Club Handicapper (no matter what club you hail from).

And theHPRW club up here runs mixed grades, but based on what your Open grade is (eg. Their B1 grade race is Elite C, Masters B, Masters C aged under 45yo, and Womens B).

I guess at the end of the day, as a rider all you want is some consistency and to race against riders of similar ability…….. :)

Cheers,
Abby

ease up on the northern combine. that organisation is ran by a very small group of VOLUNTEERS who VOLUNTEER THEIR TIME. It is a massive job to run a bike race, and these guys do it every weekend throughout the winter. They do it so that people like you can go out and race every weekend. Perhaps instead of casting a stone about results being posted, volunteer some of your time and help out

In the Tour of Bright, its pretty easy to pick the sand bagers. Just check out the TT results. Something definitely needs to be done. BTW the weather looks great for this weekends race.

I'm a big fan of PW and LMcD and MU etc who do everything. Big fan. Lots of us always go out of our way to thank them at presentations. I 100% agree with your sentiment.

A_C has some valid points (but perhaps could have phrased it a bit more sensitively). Transponders are a great and easy thing to manage I'd have thought. I'd pay extra on the day ($5?) if transponders were at every race (or perhaps a yearly/season cost of $20 to have my own, which perhaps gets refunded at the end of the season with the return of the Tx). The people running it (if it wasn't the club) could upload to the NC website that night. Lots of scope here.

In the absence of a transponder system, we'll rely on the spare time of the guys doing the site after races, in – as you rightly point out – their spare time. I've personally volunteered to the right person to help update the site in a couple of areas, so that might improve over the summer, if that goes ahead.

Cool,
Tim

Some people may accidentally enter a lower grade as they underestimate their skill. Some may do it maliciously (although I don't imagine this is hugely prevalent). At the ToB, I am pretty confident I know 2 guys who will appear in the top 5, if not the top 3 (unless something goes wrong) by a reasonable margin and who could easily afford to race B.

Absent a centrally managed database/grading system, we're relying on the knowledge of handicappers etc who may be unfamiliar with some people, or people naming names. Like Seinfeld, but without the humour.

T

Also known as 'pot-hunting': playing a lower lever to win the trophy

will see some of that in Bright this weekend!!

Hey Wade didnt you win the B-grade at ToB after racing A-grade the year before??

So what happens if you have a strong guy who could race Cat 3 or 2, but hasn't been racing for a few years b/c he doesn't have time and wants to have an occasional race every couple of months. Is his only option to turn up and smash Cat 4 or 5?

I entered Masters last year and ended up winning it. The year before I did A grade and got spanked! This year I'm in A grade again as Masters was full.

It's gonna be a long lonely ride up Hotham…

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you'll finish top 20. Easily.

They way I've seen it done before is once you get to a grade you stay there unless you apply for a demotion. I think you get demoted a grade if you haven't raced in 2yrs or more. If you go and smash cat 4, then you'll get enough points to be up in Cat 3 in a couple races. However, you'll find that the grades are much more competitive than they are now since the abilities are spread throughout the grades more evenly.

Masters is a good category for these types of riders/racers

I think you have hit quite a sore spot for a lot of people here CT.

Looks like Cycling Australia could improve competitive Cycling in Australia by introducing an appropriate system. They could greatly improve there Services in this area, and I am sure they could increase membership costs to cover the cost of setting up a nationwide system.

I am sure it would greatly benefit Australian cycling in general too, and give individuals goals, etc.

Good luck in the TOB everyone.

Great post CT. I have only been racing this year and have been very confused about the grading.

CCCC seem to have a good policy in that when i started in D grade, they wouldnt let me move up until i had won and placed. I am now in B grade and feel good having achieved wins in the lower categorys before moving up and have the experience to race in faster bunches and corner at speed. Much of the improvment I gained from reading this blog, so thanks for that!! (although i think it will be a while before jumping up to the next level:)

However there is a problem in that I have also won B grade races in masters and so I ride A grade on Thursdays, also when I race on a hilly course on the road I get dropped like a sack of potatoes and feel like I should be in D grade, so some rider descretion should come into play depending on the course (or I should just HTFU)

Interesting read as usual WW. I did get a chuckle out of the Anonymous Coward that bagged Northern Combine out. Lets just say that the NC had unprecedented growth in last years winter season. The 2007 & 2008 seasons were littered with races that only had 30-40 riders across all grades turn up. 2009 we had regularly over 120 and verging on 200 for some races. Bit of a change to manage with the same volunteer support roster with all races being executed by volunteers, permits for roads with the local councils, vicroads and police being organised in peoples personal time.

Handicapping within the NC being performed by Pete W was a monumental task which even with the number of people turning up, few would argue he got it wrong.

I'd love to see some sort of standardised national grading system put in place. It really would improve the way we run events. However it would have to be portable to remote locations where power is not available. Transponders are great too, but you still need manual time keeping in case they don't work – which is known to happen.

Unfortunately large portions of our peak cycling bodies are run by people that do not cycle/race or do not have a background in cycling/racing, as a result do not know what things can be done to improve racing. However having seen some changes at the grass roots levels recently and getting involved myself in NC management; you can change things – just be prepared to own them.

Dont forget some people might be strong riders but cant TT for penuts

Wow, naive or what? I assumed this was how it was being run already. For the last 2 years or so, I've been going to join a club, but this puts me off. Nothing worse than badly run sport.

Totally agree. The NC has one of the best Handicappers in the business as well. He actually keeps records of each rider, how the travel, what they are good at and places them accordingly. Yes WWs system will work better as a global system but in absence of such a system thank christ for guys like Wykes who pay attention to all those who compete. And as Ian has pointed out, he did this whilst managing fields larger then most opens.

I agree that a centralised, results-based handicapping system needs to be put into place, particularly with the recent growth of the sport. One of those things that I imagine will take a lot of work, not to implement, but to get all of the state bodies agreeing with each other on the best way to go about doing things.
As I understand, in the US model, you can log into a website and it will list every race result you have ever had, and all the other people racing etc. That would just be awesome.

oh and my post is not a gratuitous attempt to suck up to the handicapper. I start most of my handicap races off scratch and happily suffer :) Best place to be :)

I agree, having rowed in th UK we have a similar system; Novice, Snr 3, 2, 1, Elite. Results allow you to upgrade your licence. But there is a large pool of women. The system would work here with cycling where women have a seperate grade, but how would grading translate where women are combined with men?

There is no question the “yeah, I remember you” grading system needs to go. Replaced by a system that is known to work elsewhere. They don't need to re-invent the wheel, we just have to use one that is approved for racing. ;)

In the mean time….

Rather than introduce an “E grade” and to stop the masses of entries being in C and B – How about they move every rider who considers themselves a B grade is now A grade for the next few weeks. C graders are now B grade, and so on. Everyone takes a step up – NO QUESTION. Those who are serious will take this challenge head on and will learn a thing or two about racing and themselves. I've no doubt that a large portion of riders will find they can step up to the next grade and be competitive. Those who find themselves out of their depth will have a new insight into what the racing/pace/tactics are like in a higher grade – and this might give them the spark to train harder, race smarter, take their cycling to the next level. Isn't that what bike racing is all about?

It may be as simple as reducing entry fees for riders who want to step up to the next grade for the first few weeks… Or offering the first 10 place getters each week in D, C, B a free ride next week in the grade above.

Just random ideas I thought I'd throw out there while we're stuck with a grading system nobody likes. I'm keen to hear what other people think.

cheers,
Shane

Not an uncommon topic – good reading Wade.

I challenge Cycling Australia (and why not, CSV and the other state orgs as well) to acknowledge this issue exists. Is it possible our peak cycling body is only conerned with the elite level and would prefer the clubs to manage their own affairs individually?

Clubs can only do so much with limited budgets and volunteers, the Northern Combine is a great example, as too is Loraine at CCCC – how often have we all recieved a group bollocking from her about trying to drop a grade on race day.

The existing grading systems work to some level, but manageability is tough. A unified system would undoubtably improve the experience. Whilst it might frustrate some riders, over the long run, abilities will even out across the grade and ultimately make everything an level playing field.

2 cents

Agree.. and leave the dolphins alone!

You probably looked too Pro!

Poor bugger, makes it very disheartening.

Yep, fair response. I get that the NC relies on volunteering as do all of the events I enter to some degree and I have been a volunteer at our club crits. Big thanks to all of the volunteers and I by no means aimed my criticism at the people – it's the system that is archaic. I'm thinking this is where my contribution (and others perhaps?) might be better applied by using non-cycling skills gained in business or whatever to assist in bringing amatuer cycling into the electronic age. I know there's plenty of CTers who dabble in MTB and anyone who's done a GMBC race at the Yangs would be equally impressed by how these guys (volunteers as well) run a bike race from an administrative point of view. In retrospect, I humbly retract my comment about the Northern Combine as they are certainly not unique in their administrative style and I sincerely apologise – it was out of line.

There is definately room for improvement, but dont get put off. The club races are all run well in their own right and I think you'll find it very hard to race for as cheap as we do here – at least i am always astounded by the quality of the club races and volunteers for the small amount we pay each week.

Cycling South Australia are starting to lead the way with this, at least on the transponder front….
http://www.sa.cycling.org.au/?ID=34089

All riders can get their own transponders linked to their licence and they work for 12 months before needing to be replaced I think. You have to have a transponder to race the big races, and one would hope that in time that is linked to the results for easy future handicapping.

Doesn't seem too hard a system to be implemented here, and along with the US points system method it sounds like a great way to move forward.

Ouch. Please see my reply to BTJ above for apology…

Touche

Well done to Cycling SA, that system looks great. Sure make timing a whole lot easier. Never been envious of volunteers at the end of a race having to manage with stop watch and clipboard trying to write down everyone's number and time.

csv have been testing out some transponder technology as well. They wired us up for a test run at one of the NC races. They seem to fit easily on your forks and according to the testers did the job. So one can presume this technology is only a short while away in Vic as well.

Don't be put off racing! Grading at club works pretty smoothly. It just with large open events where we start to have issues.

Time trial is a bit flatter than Hotham or Tawonga……people might ride fast in the TT, but get caught out in the real climbs

I have to agree with what most have said.

It interesting to note that the Tour of Bright for this year was going to have MastersA B & C grades instead of Masters 123, 45 & 6+, a bit like what Cyclesports Victoria have been doing for Victorian Master TT series this year. But organisers and CSV decided against it in the end because grading would be to hard given riders come from all over country to compete in the ToB. So I think there is really a need for something better. Maybe the powers that be are starting to think the same way.

Wade you might want to contact head handicappers for a few different state cycling bodies to see what they think.

Points system? Great idea. (somewhat) consistent grading? Brilliant. As a relatively new racer trying out a few venues/courses over time it's pretty hard to track what grade is (roughly) equivalent from club to club, there's quite some disparity here in Melb.

Cycling Australia really needs to tackle this head on. What do we pay our megabucks each year for?

The disparity between the different clubs and states, as well as the lack of a standardised system, is one of the many side effects of not having a unified national sporting structure in cycling. This means that consistent policies are non-existent and the resources to implement large-scale systems are simply not there. If the national body had the power and resources to ensure that there was a national database, and clubs were given funds and/or equipment to properly monitor races and riders, then we would have happy riders with all their results centralised and handicapping for organisers made easy!

I can't claim this idea as my own. It was in the Crawford report which, despite its unnecessary and unwanted derision of Olympic ideals, has some very useful ideas for how to structure sport in Australia in the future to get rid of the duplication, improve support and provide better resources for grass roots sport.

Let's get a national database together so results are easy to find and handicapping can be automatic!

Great site wade, i've been following for a few weeks now.

This is the most important post so far though – I cant believe what a shambles open racing in Aus is. I come from the UK where the system works really well and couldnt beleive a country with the pedigree of riders that Aus has runs such a free for all system.

Please do your best to put the salient points of the argument forward to cycling Au.

A far bigger problem then “sandbagging” are riders that promote themselves to a grade that they may scrap around in but are far from competitive and have no real bearing or influence on the race. There would be easily be 20 to 25 of these in A Grade at Sandown on a Tuesday night. If these guys raced B Grade it would improve the grades standard and 'sandbagging” would be no issue at all. The higher level of competition would also make the transition to A Grade easier for those winning B grade. At the moment A graders with a life, job, kids and on the wrong side of 35 that have the winter off have to put up with all this sandbagger rubbish from the born agains just because they wish to enjoy their racing and take time getting fit in the crit season. An improved system would help this as riders would have to stop mumbling when asked just what races they ever won.

Every club needs someone like Lorraine at CCCC try jumping or droping a grade with her and you'll know about it.

http://carnegiecycling.com.au/?c=WhosWho

Believe ive heard that nz that with oyur bike nz licence comes a transponder and a number u keep for the year. Done some racing in south africa and we had a transponder that you keep for life.
Their big fun rides are done by a big computerise system and you get placed in a group based on previous times etc – so if south africa can do it with 30,000 competitiors then im sure it can happen here.
When I arrived in Melbourne last year – i spoke to cycling vic and they wouldnt put me off scratch (where i should have been). Even this year i was put off 3min for a race and all the scratch guys werent happy (as i race with them all the time in opens at a very competitive level). Even had to basically pledge my case to put me off scratch in the Melbourne – Ballarat which I ended up with a very good result in.
hopefully things change for the better soon

Hi Wade,
i havent read all the posts, so i might be repeating what others have said, buy i did a little racing in the UK and they have the same system as the US. It works a treat to. You even got sent a different coloured licence with photo when you went from cat 3 to cat 2.
The racing was more positive too, as there was very rarely the chance that you were up against an ex olympian or something.
Anyway, keep up the great work, hopefully CSV will pull their finger out. i know they want to, they just need to see how good the racing can get when a effective system is in place.
cheers

By sandbagging, I mean dropping down a level to clean up, or, staying down a level when you could easily step up.

This is a massive problem — how's my mate…paid in August for ToB but because there is not an automatically updated race entry database tied to payment front end, he had no idea he was not on the list until tonight.

Lame. The whole thing is a schemozzle and there is no excuse for it.

This is long over due, it has been a bit of a joke for too many years and keeps getting put in the too hard basket.when it's not.
If Lorraine could be cloned, that would solve things, but as she is a one off, CA does NEED to act.
There are plenty of good solutions ( the English system looks good ) being put forward, so it shouldn't be long before changes are made, well?
If you think it is bad? there was an elite crit run last week in New Zealand, half an hour plus three laps?
And this WAS elite riders, half an hour plus three?
There are NO regular crit series AT ALL, any where in NZ, and it's crit season.
I know things are not 100% in OZ, but you do still have very good regular races series, club and other wise.

Couldn't agree more!!
Entered the TOB as a Master C grade as it was my first road race and wanted an introduction that wasn't going to totally destroy me. Found out a week or two later the grades were being changed back to age groups. Which meant a longer first stage but a major step up in rider quality racing in masters age group. Tried to enter C grade but was told by CV that because I was racing on a masters licence I had to race masters 1/2/3.
I then looked at the start list to find masters licence holders racing C grade. Where is the consistency?
It just seems that CV make up the rules to grading on the run.
A grading system that is universally recognised within the cycling community would make CV job so much easier and give riders like myself an idea of what to expect when racing.
There will always be “sandbaggers” but at least with some of the systems proposed it would give riders confidence that they are riding against other guys of similar ability.
Looking forward to a right old spanking by the masters guns on the weekend..
Love your work Wade!!
CV seem to make the rules up on the run.. If they

South Australia has the Rendition Homes team Series, for sponsored riders in teams. The best riders in the state. These races are run with A, B, C, D grade evenst also. I find that in this case A grade is what it should be- part time, amateur riders with a day job. The Team Series is for the budding and ex professionals and up and comers with higher aspirations. Victoria could do this too.

@ Guest who had concerns re. guys riding A grade who were not strong enough to win A grade races, I think you're failing to grasp the reality for those of us who front up week in week out and donate our $10 entry fee to the top few riders because we're to strong to ride B grade. Believe me I'd love to be racing 1/2 a grade down but that's just not functional for the clubs organising races, you can't have too many grades, the reality is that someone has to lose. I work 50+ hours a week and simply don't have the time to train like other top riders do, and for the record yes I did plead to be dropped down to B grade last year and was right back up to A after about 4 weeks. It takes a lot of heart and just enjoyment for the sport to front up to races and know that you've basically got no chance of winning, but participate anyway.

I'm in a similar situation as you Michael. I get smashed in the Open A grade events but have no interest in riding B grade. I think that if an upgrade system were implemented it would make B grade much more competitive and then people like us would have an enjoyable place to race.

Totally agree with you CT. If you are truly in between grades – especially A-B grades – it's a bitch of a position to be in.

Couldn't this then be extended for state/national selection?

After all, it's the same currently the same process with the same problems!

Selectors pick and choose base on ad-hoc, unpublished, inconsistent criteria..

I have always wondered about the American system. How does it cope with teams. i.e. How does it work for the domestiques of a team? If a rider is your classic domestique who works tirelessly for the 1st 75% of a race and then delivers their main guy into the selection, but he finishes 5min+ down on the leaders, does he still have to be a consistent place getter to maintain his position in his category? Similarly what if the diesal engine on your team is your guy for the last 2 laps of a crit before pulling off and coming last.

How does the American system deal with riders that are clearly good enough but not driven by personal results?

Scott-

I race in the USA and basically one has to look for personal results to upgrade. I think this makes sense, to an extent, because it shows one's desire to compete and move up. If someone wants to race at a fairly high level, rather than just bang around with the Cat4s for 60 miles, he or she's got to get some points. The points don't have to come off of victories, of course.

Though I can't speak for Elite/1/2 riders, you're basically a Cat3 until you upgrade (or request a downgrade if you get old and slower). You don't need to “maintain” your Cat3 license with results in Cat3 races. Your category is just the ticket into the race. I've never heard of someone getting demoted.

Scott-

I race in the USA and basically one has to look for personal results to upgrade. I think this makes sense, to an extent, because it shows one's desire to compete and move up. If someone wants to race at a fairly high level, rather than just bang around with the Cat4s for 60 miles, he or she's got to get some points. The points don't have to come off of victories, of course.

Though I can't speak for Elite/1/2 riders, you're basically a Cat3 until you upgrade (or request a downgrade if you get old and slower). You don't need to “maintain” your Cat3 license with results in Cat3 races. Your category is just the ticket into the race. I've never heard of someone getting demoted.

So once you get to the category you want, you can sit in there until you demote yourself or your out of competition for too long? Fair enough. Thanks.

I'm looking at you A_C to help put the results in for Northern Combine (or organise a roster). Perhaps you are too 'Pro' to help? Jake Sutherland can roll up his sleeves as required If you race with Northern combine it is your issue to help solve- it is run by riders for riders. Northern Combine 's main aim is to put on ~20 road races every season and we do it and it is affordable. Every year we have improved in safety and organisation since I have been involved although it is far from perfect. Remember CA & CSV has many fulltime employees NC has none. Transponder systems are expensive and do not solve results (or volunteer) issues they create these problems. It requires even more volunteers to set up and run the computer / give out and pick up and chase up lost transponders One truck across the finish line can stuff the system. ( Try a course where there are laps such as Newham/lancefield) Talk to anyone who has actually had to run one! Just extra volunteer(s) to complile results is what is required.

Opens tend to have more resources to use for big races like TOB. My bet there will be a bunch of exhausted officials who volunteered for this event.

To the main issue I agree that handicapping could be improved and the current system is too ad hoc. Puting results into a database of some description- (low cost solution:google docs?) is a good idea. Furthermore I notice many riders ready to compete in serious mass start events without even a season of club level racing behind them. We need a better mentoring/training system for riders in our clubs.I first started racing with Northern Vets 12 years ago where a number of riders who had been racing all their lives instructed me in racing skills and etiquette Novice riders of all ages seem to arrive at racing a bit too “PRO” for their own good! (Check out DISC track competence……)

Well this weekend was an absolute debacle.

In C grade we had A graders riding. WTF? I will be writing CSV a letter about this. It's super discouraging to be riding alongside someone you know races locally in A grade.

Pov

Tim,

This is an open event. I was shocked when I rode my first Open event (Baw Baw Classic) too. It is many levels above grade racing at Northern Combine.

Don't get to worked up about it. As long as you had fun, and sounds like you can aim to do better next year.

That's right James. Open races are much different than club races. I guess this is another reason why a proper grading system needs to be put in place. The newcomers to the sport have no idea that B-grade in an Open is much different that B-grade club level. Usually club racers drop down a grade or two in an open race.

You are right, it is shocking. Shockingly shocking. I was shocked into a shockingly shocked state of shockingly shocked shock at the level of riding.

However, there are some elements about the event that are really disappointing and that is what I am going to let CSV and ACC know about.

Yeah I was whinging but the key points Wade made have been backed up.

It'd be good to see a D grade in open, and a centralised grading system that prevents people dropping more than 1 grade (or something).

James: yep it was radtimes actually! :)
That's all been forgotten as I munged on the angry pills this morning as I spun to work. I'm already wondering how I get get leaner, faster and improve my NASA space aged bike weaponry. Times, Wiliers, new wheels, carbon this, carbon that. Maybe a Wolverine-like Adamantium skeletal system. You know, things of that nature. Wade's doping post sure opened my eyes up too. I wonder if the local GP will hook me up with some sweet HGH.

Tim

And how did those A graders go?

Definitely a fun weekend of racing in the Tour of Bright….C Grade was very quick.

Stage 3: Mt Hotham
Positions 1st to 5th in C Grade would have also come 1st-5th in B Grade based on time…I think we need a grading system….

I think CV should get a permanent timing van to solve this problem.

Apparently there was a timing van at the Tour of Bright. I saw the results pop up live from the beach at Lorne. If there was a dedicated van and team that went to the crit races on the weeknights, and then the races on the weekend, then it would provide much needed and specific support for the clubs. There would be permanent equipment and dedicated staff to help solve this problem. Voila, we would have instant results and a centralised database of results ready to solve this problem!

Maybe it should be a joint venture between CA/CV?

Hahaha, I agree Pierre. I tried promoting myself to C grade without winning a D grade race at Sandown on a Tuesday night (I had an incident in one D grade race, and rode on blown up legs from a big ride the day before another) and whilst I whined and carried on like a spoilt brat, Lorraine wouldn't have a bar of it!!

If there is all these great systems in the US and the UK – why don't we just license an existing system (i.e. database, web UI, points system – you know, the whole shooting match)

Has to be far cheaper than building a system from scratch and it doesn't make sense if we can get something that has already been fine tuned over a number of years.

I think if we pick a system flexible enough to import data directly (i.e. where electronic timing is employed) or manually then it will suit ALL types of events. With the low cost of a laptop and wireless card, any event would be capable of at least getting the data uploaded. I would imagine too such technology could be made available at clubs to help with booking, another area that needs a serious bit of attention. Anyway no need to go too much into why we need it, you guys have covered all that,.. So on to getting this happening:

Step1) Appoint a committed that includes some guys with IT skills to help with evaluation, implementation and training (I'll put my hand up, I know Timbo would chip in also)
Step2) Evaluate existing systems that we can license
Step3) Jack up all license fees by required sum (I am sure it would be minimal when defrayed across all license holders and I don't know any racers who won't be happy to cover it)
Step4) Implement the new system
Step5) Enjoy!

No offense to CV, but it can't be that difficult, and clearly Cycling in Aus is crying out for it!

It's been posted on CyclingSportNews too, so mainstream media are picking up on it too: http://www.cyclesportnews.com/aus/index.php?opt…

I don't think a license would be cost effective. Why not just spec and implement a mysql implementation with php/html front end. Standard results input with some flexibility to add positions etc (and maybe even fields into the table).

One table per club.

What do we pay licenses for if not for stuff like this.

I think you are right about defraying costs. Clubs could sign up for this and get a cheap netbook+phone/3G/4G/WiFi modem and do it on the spot (or later that night), so irrespective of timing, even clubs without timing can get a uniform results table onto the CA server who manage it for states and clubs.

I'd only get involved if there were serious about spending the requisite 20k or so. How many CA members are there? 10,000? 5,000?

It's clearly not that difficult, but then…well you know, that old GC-D chestnut.

Well Timbo, as a businessman yourself I am sure you will agree that in the options analysis we would smart to consider both 'off the shelf' and 'custom' solutions and rate them based on

Cost of each solution
Alignment with Australian requirements specification
Cost of implementation and ongoing support of each
People impact (i.e. is it going to be usable for the club administration who will do the day to day data management)

See this is why a committee of young(ish) IT savvy business brains should be involved. Ideas just meld into unbelievable solutions.

Well my friend, as an unbereevable can-do Maverick New Pioneer Blue Ocean Flipped Funky Business security and social network entrepreneur as well as lover of fine brandies, Cessna Citation X's and fun times in Hong Kong yourself, I am sure that you know that we could easily knock out a bit of unbelievable requirements analysis at CA/state/club level, and then assess COTS versus OTS versus custom solution giving us a weighted matrix that would reveal the Final Solution without too much hassle.

Shouldn't be too hard if CA went hands off and got unbelievable consultative/web business/system engineering brains onto it to develop funky focussed low cost easy to use web based grading system.

You know what they say. If you need something done, give it to a busy person.

Like wise, I've been reading your blog for a few weeks, and this is the first time I've commented.

Also, like lantern_rouge, I've raced in the UK with the points system, and can't understand why there is no similar system here. I've also raced in Canada, which uses the US system – essentially it is the same in principle as the UK system.

If a points-based grading system were introduced, it would have to be NATIONAL, which means that it needs to be organised by CA, not the state organisations.

Transponders would be a nice touch, but they are not essential – what is needed is a requirement for all race organisers to submit their results to a centrally organised database (preferably including club and combine races, not just opens), linked to a ranking system for the races (so that smaller, lower grade races earn fewer points that more important higher grade races), and an upgrade system based on a set number of points to move from grade to grade.

Hmmm. As a newbie cyclist and maths/IT nerd, this is a fascinating topic.

For one thing, people speculating at a very detailed level on specific web platforms, netbooks, and so on, it's probably worth taking a step back from the specifics of the technology and first having a really good think about what we want out of the process.

The first thing to consider is a set of objectives for a handicapping/grading system.
Then you look at a system that achieves the best compromise in what I suspect will be an overlapping and probably mutually incompatible set of objectives..

For instance, the author wants to exclude lesser riders from A grade, but it's not clear exactly *why*. How is their presence affecting the competition between those people who *do* have a chance to win? What would excluding them from A grade achieve? And what's the downside of doing so?

I have no doubt that an improved handicapping/grading system would involve a centralized database of race results, but there's going to be more to it than that.

Some issues to consider include:

* how do you compare results in completely different cohorts of riders who might only overlap at events like the Tour of Bright? Is being a middle-of-the-road B grader at the Northern Combine equivalent to being a middle-of-the-road B grade in the Canberra club competition? And, no, a category system wouldn't necessarily help. Is being a Cat 3 in California really the same as being a Cat 3 in Tennessee or Colorado?
* how many grades are appropriate – and is it desirable to apply the same grades in racing from a summer crit up?

My suspicion is that it's not actually desirable to apply the same gradings in (for example) Northern Combine as it is in CSV opens. What would work better is a ratings system that can be used to calculate where a cyclist is at based on a complete assessment of their results; from that rating you could assign appropriate gradings given the circumstances of each individual event. Something akin to ELO ratings in chess, though the maths will be a fair bit more complicated because of the extra complexities of cycling.

Whilst you are of course correct in mentioning high level requirements, and the process from moving from requirements analysis to implementation – as others have also pointed out – and the considerations apropos matching club grading up etc (overcome via a weighted grading system perhaps according to rider results in open comps), people mentioning the specific (yet fleetingly discussed) ways to do this are probably doing so to demonstrate there are no impediments at the user/technology level to achieving this – i.e there is no excuse for the absence of a system from a tech/user/cost level.

What you are talking about is of course the first step (what do we want), but the ins and outs of how you achieve parity across clubs etc are of course part of the solution when you start implementing databases, algorithms and so on to weight results and so on.

I think people have clearly enunciated why they think lower graded riders should not be in an Open A race. Race skill, race experience. I think it's a fair point.

I also think it's obvious that not many people want the same gradings applied between club and open events, hence strengthening the case for a central system to weight and normalise all the results for parity (insofar as it is possible, agreed upon and bearing in mind something is better than nothing and can be fine tuned over time).

Hi Robert,

This is proving to be a great topic for debate. Some great points you bring up.

To answer your question on why I'd prefer some riders moved back from A-grade…

Many riders are more than strong enough to be riding A grade, but lack the experience to be mixing it up. Some of them have had one season of racing and maybe came from another sport. The fact that they're in there not having the bike handling skills and knowledge of tactics/positioning causes confusion and danger for everyone else. Many times they're not idly sitting in the back. They're panicking to keep up front because they're not confident of their form or positioning.

Your other consideration “Is being a Cat 3 in California really the same as being a Cat 3 in Tennessee or Colorado?”. The way things work out, the categories line up pretty close between states. Depth of field is what changes. Instead of having 5 guys who can win the race in Ohio, maybe 20 people could win the race in California. I imagine there are some extreme cases (Alaska vs Colorado for example).

Besides, the only time this really matters is when riders hit Cat 1/2. These are the majority of the riders who are traveling across the country for most events (note, I said “majority” and “most”).

You need to cover all those fancy “Campag” “Colnago” stickers with “Huffy” labels. Reduces the chance of being stolen too! Make sure you don't train in the day or you'll look too tanned like a pro…And – don't shave your legs, and keep your bike dirty…

Tim, I agree entirely that it's worth establishing that there are no technological impediments to doing this. Even giving all registered riders a transponder is affordable these days, though whether you'd have recording equipment at every race is another matter.

I suppose I'm suggesting that the easy part is collating the results. The hard part is deciding how to allocate gradings based on it – particularly if you're going to take the human element out of the process and try to do it on transparent, objective basis.

Mind you, I suspect handicapping/grading would improve quite a lot if even the first, easier, step of making all race results nationwide available to handicappers was done.

I think you've done everyone a service by raising this issue, and I hope that it serves as a starting-off point for a serious think by CA and CSV about a clearly less than optimal situation.

But your specific proposal for an experience qualification for A Grade serves nicely to illustrate the complexities of the issue. Keeping physically strong but inexperienced riders out of A grade CSV Opens will undoubtedly make racing safer and more pleasant for you. But what is it going to do for people in the lower grades? Are the newbies going to be any less dangerous in B grade? Is it going to ensure that the only people who ever get a decent result in lower grades are new riders who are clearly going to end up in A grade sooner rather than later?

I'm not necessarily saying that that aspect of your proposal is wrong, by the way, just pointing out that there are potential downsides that need to be thought through.

I'm not sure your assumption that the issue of comparing grades in different competitions only matters for the equivalent of Cat 1's and 2's is entirely correct. Events like the Tour of Bright have a lot of entrants from Canberra down through the grades, and I believe they also get the occasional Queenslander and Sydneysider. Even at combine level, the one case where the handicappers got completely fooled was late in the season where a bunch of Blackburn juniors showed up and blew everyone away.

I suppose the broader point I'd like to make here is that sporting organizations are usually run by elite athletes or former elite athletes, and they usually view their sport through the perspective of the needs of current elite competitors, or juniors who might become elite competitors. I just hope that if a revamp of grading is done, it's not designed exclusively around the needs of those two groups. I'd like some consideration to be given to those people who will never be elite athletes but enjoy cycling to the best of their ability. For such people, I would argue that they would like to compete against others who are at a similar level of ability, and have the chance to win or get a podium once in a blue moon, even if it's just in a combine C grade scratch race or a summer crit.

My other broader point is that grading based on past results is a statistical analysis problem. Therefore it would be a very good idea to get input from the professionals in the area – statisticians.

Cheers.

So I've been called out and I will volunteer my time and ideas to the Northern Combine via my club in the hope that I can add some value other than entry fees. I think I made it clear in my previous comments that I was being critical of the administrative systems involved that seem to require a lot of volunteer time and manpower, not the volunteers themselves and I further clarified my criticism by saying that NC was not unique in its administrative style. If you've seen me race, you'll know I'm not too Pro for anything – I do it for the fun and the love of it and just like I'm always looking for ways too improve my form on the bike, I also look at how things happen around me and wonder how they could be improved. I guess it's not okay to raise a legitimate point of criticism about the administration of sporting organisations if they are run by undisputably hard-working and dedicated volunteers, but is is okay to level personal criticism (Anonymous Coward and too Pro) at anyone who dares suggest there may be some room for improvement. I wasn't too proud to say I'd overstepped the mark and apologise, maybe that's something that you and Ian might want to reflect on.

Very useful to see what is done in other parts of the world and especially a place like the US where there can be partisan wheel barrows pushed in the name of state's rights (never happens in Oz, right?). In that sense, they've lived up to the “United” bit in the country's name. Well done Wade for pointing this out and giving us something to chew over.

It makes too much sense to have a national system that can push towards a standardised methodology across all states, or even within just one state. Models for achieving this are out there. What's missing? Recognition that a problem exists? Vision of the improvements that could be implemented? Leadership by the governing body to steward the process to a meaningful end point?

What role has the UCI to play?

They set out technical regs for the conduct of racing of all types that serve as a model for individual nation's cycling bodies that sets a minimum standard. Why not the same for grading? Or am I asking for way too much?

Firstly sorry did not look through all threads so missed your initial apology. Happy to have help and ideas – I just react to accusations that there are easy solutions to fix issues other than people volunteering. Why not put your “legitimate point of criticism”in an email to NC or your delegate rather than using a forum?(At least initially). You may have a great idea and if so love to hear it, but technological fixes are notorious for creating problems requiring more people not less. (One exception was google docs adaption for entry system a free solution that saves time ) Last year our main issue remains spreading the workload so that we dont burn out people . At the end of the day we are amateur racers and if our lack of resources/energy means that results go up a week late so be it – bit less fun to the experience but no ones career is about to end and the earth will still revolve- and you'll even be able to race the following week!

Ps “I'm Lookin at you Northern combine” does not equal “..a legitimate point of criticism..” in my view.

I actually think AC had a good point. Perhaps he didn't phrase it sensitively enough, and perhaps one could have looked ignored one's initial impulse to react defensively, so that we may move forward and get can do about fixing it. Not that it's in our power to overhaul the entire thing (oh for a strong dictator – Getting Stuff Done) but….little steps.

He may also have already raised this (as I have), with nothing happening.

Technological fixes can be notorious if they are specc'd by monkeys who have not read Getting Real by 37signals, ESPECIALLY if they attempt to solve everybody's problems. The designer's initial response to any feature request is to be a “No”. If you have someone capture the simple shortcomings, it can easily be implemented (like I mention below).

The reason Google docs succeeds (as do many software as service cloud based services) is because it does not seek to be Microsoft Word. It simply aims to allow you to create basic-formatted docs and that's it.

I've already volunteered to donate the use of a plugin I've had developed for WordPress (which cost me 1k to get made) that would allow them to create a uniform
a) race detail post per race, including embedded Google Map (that people could print off), registration address and info, race start address and info, etc etc
b) race results per race with uniform presentation of results

The results can also easily hook into Flickr so hook pictures into a post.

Both forms could be made to send submissions (which could be made by any number of approved contributors so there is not a single point of failure) to certain “categories” like “race-detail” and “results” so form submissions could effectively become posts in a blog category. You can then make that category appear on certain pages (easily).

People can then RSS or email-subscribe to race detail info so they get emails when a new post is made and that then ameliorates the need to constantly check the site on Monday, Tues, Wed to make sure you register in the 24-48 hour cutoff (which in and of itself is an issue).

It frustrates me because I can see how easily and cheaply it could be made better, but for that to happen, people (and in this case it directly applies to the NC) need to cede some control. So, you make the point about spreading the workload – well here's a perfect example of someone offering to help do exactly that.

All of us are smarter than one of us.

As to the “results are up a week later, too bad” – I can see your point of view, but in my mind, it doesn't have to be that way at all (see my point above).

At the simplest level, results could be uploaded (after vetting on the day) by any number of officals to the site that night.

It gets even more frictionless if CA think about providing notebooks on site for results collation, and gets even betterer still if transponders are involved.

Well, there's certainly some passion in this which is great! I hope I've set a couple of examples here – firstly the bad one not to follow: Don't shoot your mouth off without first standing in the audience and contemplating how you might react to your own comments. Guilty as charged. Secondly, after inevietably failing on the first point and having someone point out that you're out of line (whether that is done politely or not), pull your head in and respond to the challenge. My club has received my offer of contribution and is putting me in touch with the right people. I look forward to helping out and hope that my big mouth and drive for improvement can be put to some use. Anyone care to join me?

Hi Tim
Ive forwarded your email to the boffins who look after the web – I use a word press “portal/interface” to post brunswick stuff seems to work OK- I dont want detail now but I assume you have added bells and whistles

Firstly, there is NO way that we should be discussing technological design a this point (yes its true that there is no technical impediment to getting a system out there but quite frankly – no IT system is successful when people are distracted by technical detail at the high level discussion stage).

As has been pointed out by a few people, although everyone seems eager to do something asap, there are some underlying disagreements in the posts above. For instance, there appears to be a bias from higher level (A, B) riders and little comment from older D grade or abject beginners so far. Until you have ALL parties represented in the discussion, a cohesive plan will be difficult to produce.

So:
We want a simple to understand and implement grading system.
We don't know how many races a person must do before others consider them “experienced”
We don't know what happens when a really really strong rider enters cycling (I am thinking of people like Drew Ginn at this point – He is massively strong whilst at the same time relatively inexperienced in mass start events) – from the examples outlined above, he will:
– Win consistently in lower grades and get up to at least B in shortest possible time
– Risk serious injury in the punter classes (just as St Kilda what its like in B to D at the moment)
– End up in senior gradings without the experience he was supposed to gain
– Deprive others in lower grades while he is there from getting points that they need to progress
We don't know what happens when an experienced rider returns but is nolonger strong (Used to race successfully in B but now has a serious job and family so doesn't train and just wants to have fun)
Do we care that some riders could spend a year or more int he lower grades even though they actually are strong enough and talented enough to be racing a grade higher (except that they dont race that often in the current year for some reason?)

For myself, I think it would be great if there was a system, but it really needs careful planning. Its true that the IT would be easier and thats why it should be ignored for now. It doesnt need IT project management, it needs Business Analysis to scope out the correct solution and its requirements

Where are the rules that say the nuts and bolts can't be quickly discussed?

Answer: there aren't any.

Now that that has been removed as an impediment, you are right.

Requirements Analysis, THEN Project Management, part of which will include IT and OSS/BSS systems.

That's pretty obvious.

Anyway, nothing will happen from here, we're running around in circles, unless
a) someone puts something together for CA, and
b) CA runs with it, or
c) CA is reading this and gets off its bum and does something

[...] big part.  “Experience” and “fitness” are relative terms, so if races are graded properly you should almost always be capable of racing at the [...]

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