L-B-L – An Unpopular Win

yep, “blah blah blah says Vinokourov.Translated, “i am still a desperate eastern european who will do anything to win, (Juice up to the eyeballs on the gear) and have zero credibility… “

Vino=Doping loser, get lost you freak, get a job back in the coal mines in kazakhstan… unfortunately he is going to win more races, till he goes positive again…..

Ricco, Vino etc… are a scourge on our beautiful sport.

Funny you should say that Gerro came 10th because that is exactly what I am doing these days, mentally editing the results sheet (by scratching out names) until I come to whom I feel was the real winner. Today only one of the three “Alexanders” should have been on the podium, the Russian one. All true cycling fans should have been sickened to the stomach by today's result and it shows what a farce our sport has become because those in charge of it aren't willing to make the hard decisions needed to give it some respectability back. I used to like Vino, who could not right? But I felt cheated for all the emotional investment, not to mention late nights with lost sleep, enjoying and admiring his attacking, never-say-die riding style. I even felt sorry for the mess he got himself into when he was busted, but when he started to deny that feeling quickly changed, and now this? “I deserve the confidence” and “this is a bit of revenge”? Not the language of someone who is truly sorry for the incalculable damage he has done to the sport and to the fans, he couldn't care less about that.

Another sad day for cycling. Two years suspension just isn't enough, make it 5 years or even life. It was horrible to see in the news a few days ago that Vino and Ricco were fighting it out for a stage victory.

No wonder fans of other sports laugh at us. :(

aren't you being a hypocrite? wasn't i reading just the other day, something like this..

3. Der Kaiser, Jan Ullrich. The baddest mofo who ever turned the pedals in anger. The man we loved for coming in second. Oh how I miss Der Jan. Legend.

come on CT, vino is still a class rider, even if he did get busted, at least he did his time. what about valverde?, still in the peloton. now there's a kid that needs a stint in the breakfast club.

Recorded it, did not stay up. Glad I didn't. Will not watch it now.

They might dope, but they've still got to suffer.

The sport walks a balancing act between credibility and cleanliness. The stronger it tests, the more busts, the cleaner it gets, but the dirtier it looks. Then it backs off on the testing, has less positives, says “we're cleaner now”, it's credibility (temporarily) goes up, but in fact it's cleanliness goes down.

Having dopers return is a lose-lose for the sport. It has neither credibility nor cleanliness.

Well said. There's too much selective anger at returned riders. Basso gets a pass, but Vino's the devil.

Doping is/was rampant in the peleton. Enough that to vilify certain riders for getting caught is an inexact pursuit at best.

I don't like doping and not just because the media says its bad but I enjoy witnessing what I would like to believe is natural, pure athleticism at the highest level in any sport.
When a result like this happens, I am in two minds and it questions my values. Am I a well rounded person who can openly judge people and believe in a winner even if they have priors? Do I just say, sorry I don't accept this winner and there is no place in the sport for you. (2 years suspension is not a very long punishment.) I just don't know what I believe now. But I always say that the sport is damaged and I don't believe ever fully recovers.
Other sports get away with it because they are not high profile every year and for most they are there only every 4 years for the general public at large.
Others because the governing bodies do not want to go looking, for what they are afraid they will find.
Cycling has been forced to seek out and find doping & drugs within it. It is a leader in doing so, but the media love to break bad news. The media is good at finding out stuff and they publish truths and falsehoods. I guess it is just not pleasant to face ugly truths head on.

So I maybe I should just view races for the drama & spectacle they are and cheer the winner. Then view the confessions and denials, investigations falsehoods and truths for the drama & spectacle they are. Both as separate issues if I am to continue to enjoy the sport without cynicism.

It is a sad day.
I would like to think that there is a little lost in translation with Vino's quotes. But as the EagleofToledo stated “I deserve the confidence” and “this is a bit of revenge” are pretty difficult to misinterpret.

Basso went for intending to dope. Never whinge to the extent Vino did and, from what I gathered, co operated with the Puerto investigation.

Vino, on the other hand, did the usual and waiting until caught. Then threw the toys out of the pram, maintained the usual innocence and was only out for himself.

To me, it was not as much about the doping as to how those riders who were caught carried themselves. David Millar is another example of a returned doper who I admire, more than Basso even, for how he behaved during and post ban.

I am sadened,by all those angry and ugly comments,especialy when they in one sentence with beautiful sport.Give the man a break,,after all he has done more for cycling than many of his critics.The sport has rules and penalties written in, and they are developing from year to year.Vino done wrong served the penalty and that should be the end of it.He is a classy rider,and I my self can only admire his tenacity and devotionto the sport

Watching the race last night, I was just begging that he would not cross the line first. When he did finsih first i was not a happy camper. This is proof that those proven of doping offences should get life from the sport. Find another career. Next year it will probably be Ricco winning this event.

Having dickheads like Vino winning only sends a message to the other riders in the peloton that doping is good. It's gotta be frustrating for a guy like Cadel to try and follow attacks by convicted dopers that still act like total knobs.

Liege-Bastogne-Liege is a big race, but can you imagine the damage if Vino was in yellow at the Tour de France. I don't think i'd watch it and i'd feel ashamed to be a cyclist.

Oh I forgot to add I can only believe from the past that there where/are people in the peleton that are doping and not winning races. what does this say?

what a douche! should've been banned for life!

I hear what you're saying Scooter, but a large part of my attitude towards guys like Vino and Ricco has to do with the remorse shown and the manner in which they left and came back into the sport. Ullrich quietly left the sport and never came back. I have great memories of him and perhaps ignorance is bliss.

I highly doubt Vino is making the same mistakes again and is likely clean. You can't make a racehorse out of a donkey and he's a talented cyclist. Like I said, if he kept his mouth shut I may respect him once again.

It's interesting how Ricco, who quickly admitted to doping and, from what I can tell, cooperated is still vilified. Seems like it's more because of his brash personality than how he actually responded to being caught.

I will believe that Vino is riding clean unless he tests positive again. It may be that his post-race comments are as close as he comes to admitting he doped, but the point is that he has served his time and, under rules that were deemed fair for Millar and Basso, is back in the peleton. These riders have to put in incredible amounts of work to get to the level they are at, doping or not, and I feel like doping is entering the realm of marginal gains. If Vino was strong enough to win while doping, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that he is capable of winning the same race clean. EPO makes you faster, but it doesn't strap rockets to your bike.

all i could think when reading his comment was “tack-o-rific!!”

and no, vino, you're not showing young riders is possible to win without doping. that's what cadel evans and all the other clean riders who have never used drugs do when they win.

What a desperately sad day for cycling. When I saw that Vino had taken the win, I didn't even bother to read the race report. Still won't and, most likely, never will. People like Vino are killing the sport. If Cadel's victory in Fleche Wallonne was a win for those who believe in a pure sport, where hard work and guts will eventually be rewarded, then Vino winning LBL sends exactly the opposite message. Fail safe solutions are hard to find, but life bans for dopers who refuse to reveal their suppliers etc is a good first step.
Either way, an act of contrition from Vino would not go amiss. Don't go holding your breath though – the same poor decision making that he is exhibiting now is surely the same one that led him into the hands of Dr Ferrari and “preparation”.

Cyclocosm had a good post the other day about the differing standards that get applied to ex-dopers. Vino served the ban, and since he was always pretty ridiculous I'm not going to lose much sleep over a post-race interview – “Let a ho be a ho”, as they say. If he's on the gear again, he'll get popped soon enough. What is the testing regime like for ex-dopers? I assume they get watched like hawks, surely?

Not happy but the punishment is easy. Test positive twice (ever) and you are out for life, your name is stripped from every win you've ever had and you may as well pay back any prize money plus a fine while you are at it!

Alternatively just chop the offenders nuts off with an axe, one at a time for each offense. And the third and final is what is left of the “Junk”
The real men of cycling will prevail in the end!

Have to agree with you Kevin. In the end it teaches people that you can go out, cheat, then come back after a relatively short ban comparatively to the length of time in a cyclists career. Yes the rules are there and he has followed them in doing his time, but its just not the same. I have had some very enjoyable moments of the classics this year, this one is a write off.

Vino was a hero, walk away mate.

How come no one talks rubbish about guys like Millar?

A couple of points:

1) According to the scientific evidence base, drugs help a hell of a lot. Have a look at this post and this post. We're talking 10-15% gains in power output. That's enough to make me a Combine A grader, enough to turn Wade into a PRO, and enough to make a ProTour domestique a race winner. Think about what should happen to somebody who was on the gear, but now isn't. Unless there has been a radical drop-off in the rest of the peloton (which there hasn't been, Contador's climb up Verbier was quite probably the greatest Tour climbing performance ever) it simply strains credibility that somebody who was doping, and now isn't, could be remotely competitive.

The second point I draw from that evidence is that it's really bloody hard to see how a non-doped rider could compete with riders of similar natural ability who are doping.

So unrepentant dopers like Vinokourov really give me the screaming willies, the cynic in me finds it hard to believe that the ones getting caught represent most, or even a majority, of those who are cheating. And, by the law of averages, at least some of the cheaters are going to be amongst the “nice guys”. Some of them might be Aussies, too, though I really hope not.

So, what's worse – cheaters who are unrepentant about it, or cheaters who mouth all the right things and then sneak off for transfusions or whatever the current trick is?

A leopard cannot change its spots.

Neither can a cheetah.

Why should Vino cry crocodile tears just to pretend he’s sorry? I would much prefer he remain pissed that he was just one of the few unlucky ones to get caught we he knows drug use is still rampant in the peleton. The ones you should be castigating are the Millars and Basso’s, etc who either pretend they’re reformed, feined remorse, or who wanted it all swept under the carpet never to be spoken of again.

The attitude to Vino is highly hypocritical. He’s done his time and he’s free to race, which is a lot more than can be said about other riders still racing and team managers running teams.

Two days ago most of us marveled at CT’s 9 legends, me included. Half of them raced doped to the eyeballs, what’s the difference with Vino?

I leave you with a post from a forum I looked at an hour or so ago….

LBL final* result is in.

1. Convicted doper, served his time.
2. Implicated in spanish drug ring.
3. Convicted doper out on parole?
4. Says he would win everything but he is the only one that doesn't dope.
5. Says he doesn't either, but a teammate just got pinched this week. And a bunch before. And he rode for Telekom, and Saeco. And Mapei. And Lotto. None of those are exactly shining endorsements.
6. Brother paid a gynocologist for “training tips”.
7. Couple teammates busted in the past year, besides he's Spanish
8. Consorts with known dopers.
9. The brother from above.
10. Implicated in the gynocologist's little legal problem, then “cleared”, but he is Spanish as well.

And thats your top ten folks!
* for now

Brilliant! I've long noticed the ratio of hypocrites is exceptionally high among cyclists, like the owner of this blog, they pick and choose who they want to condemn to doping hell on Monday only then to redeem them on Tuesday because they promised they'd fight doping cancer with all their might as long as they can get their job back 2 months earlier

how many races has Basso won since returning from his ban?

Dopers should be tried in the criminal court for (sport) fraud. I wonder if some slammer time would make them reappraise their choices. Also they should be banned from all sport for life either as athlete, coach or administrator.

David Millar is the only credible ex-doper in my book. He's not quite the rider he was – which makes complete sense!!!!

If road performances piss you off – become a trackie. More believable performances in my book.

It should either be a criminal offence or they should be banned for life. Unless there are some heavy penalties for doing it, they'll just keep on doing it. Or.. they could just forget about testing altogether !

I like Kevin mc comment “Fail safe solutions are hard to find, but life bans for dopers who refuse to reveal their suppliers etc is a good first step.” and Robert Merkel and JD1s as well.
But I believe we can only watch the drama and spectacle a race is for what it is and wait and judge a winner after, If they are caught. Maybe they should hold prize money for 12mths so further testing can be done in that time.
Still more drug cheats are found in cycling I believe than others but I haven't got any facts to back that up of course.

I have to applaud Vino for winning this one. Though my heart bleeds for Cadel, Phillipe Gilbert amd clean sport, its good to see one of the black sheep sticking it up the UCI. Why should someone like Vino, Rasmussen or Ullrich have to suffer when riders like Pharmstrong, Valv-Piti and Contadoper have their discretion's covered up by corrupt organisations like the UCI or the Spanish Federation.

Are there still “Lance haters” out there??? Jeez… i reckon if he took something, other than to treat that disease… what was it again… oh.. CANCER… then they would've found it.
Grow up people. Vino is a liar, who openly admitted he didn't take a thing, only to then (once he had won) change his mind…

If guys like Ricco and Vino can win BIG races when clean why did they NEED to dope previously? Doesnt make any sense. Ricco is a serial doper, I think that was his 3rd offence if you count his junior days. Basso who has a shadow hanging over him has not been the same rider since his return, how can these 2 guys come back smash other riders and claim innocence.
What our sport needs is to create an amnesty and stop all retrospective testing, then empasize clean athletes by concentrating heaps on current riders and ANY positives get LIFE, no questions

One

Remorse goes a long way toward forgiveness in the public eye. A simple “It was a stupid thing to do, I am sorry to all the cycling fans that once believed in me” would go a long way.
I can't stand David Millar: his opinion of his own ability is monumental, but he 'fessed up and that often takes bigger balls than 'winning' a Classic.

Anyone who gives themself a nickname deserves to be banned for 2 years!

A cyclist's popularity seems more about their personality than their ability.

Winner until proven guilty!

I think this says it all- http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/wp-content/uploa…

My earlier post shot from the hip.

After reading the comments in between, and also Cosmo's comments on http://cyclocosm.com/2010/04/a-tale-of-two-podi…
I have to admit, I need to consider harder.

10-15%. The real problem is the hyphen. It affects some riders by <10% and other riders by >15%. So, if A is a better rider than B when they're both clean, the reverse may become true when they're both on the same doping program.

Screw ricco basso and all the other druggos, http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111460438…

??

He admitted AFTER he was banned. And even then it came towards the end of his ban. Google it, you'll quickly find him protesting his innocence.

Read up a little Dan, you'll find there's a reason for the Lance 'haters' existing.

That's a problem with doping, but to my mind a relatively minor one. Far bigger concerns to me are:

* the health risks of doping. Even if EPO can be taken safely, there's always going to be an incentive to take bigger doses of more drugs and get an even bigger performance advantage. This simply can't be done without putting people's health at severe risk somewhere along the line – I'm no physiologist, but I do know that there's at least one hard limit – at some point, riders will simply die of heatstroke on steep climbs on hot days.
* is the quality of drugs, and expert advice in their use, available to riders. Unchecked doping means that the winners are those with access to the best drugs and the best expert advice in how to use them. Cycling took the decision years ago to ensure that it's essentially a level playing field with regards to equipment. To allow doping to go on would be completely contradictory to this principle.

The same one Vino won prior to Liege, as quite the coincidence

So Vino said that the team had nothing to do with his win. Ungrateful sob. I'm sure that someone so arrogant will be a fine team man for Contador in the tour. I think that the sponsors of his team is getting negative feelings toward them and the team as a whole. I hate the fact that I watched that idiot win. What a waste of a good race. Its not about the past transgressions. Its about the possible present and the disrespect he showed to the team when re-entered the sport and is still disrespecting them with the comments his making.

Quick question re doping- Does doping just help you while you are doping, or does it raise your level overall even when you are off the dope?

Firstly, I do not condone the practice of doping. However, I think it is importnant to consider how the ban on doping can really be justified, before concluding that doping is 'wrong'. Consider the arguments to the following commonly heard reasons for the ban on drugs in sport:

1) Doping shouldn't be allowed because it's dangerous to the athletes' health.
So is riding a bicycle at 90km/h down a steep descent, drinking alcohol, among many other legal activities. Therefore is it reasonable to prohibit doping on the grounds of safety, in the context of a fully consenting adult?

2) Doping shouldn't be allowed because it's unfair.
If doping is prohibited becuase it is unfair in financial terms (assuming doping is not a cheap activity), then how is allowing the use of expensive bike equipment justified?
If doping is considered unfair because it places coercive pressure on those who don't dope, to dope in an attempt to 'keep up' with those who do, then it can be argued that those individuals are not being forced to compete, and have the freedom of choice to withdraw from the competiton.
Prohibiting doping is perhaps more unfair than allowing it. While there is incentive to dope (races to win), there will always be those who attempt to do so undetected.

3) Doping is against the spirit of competition.
Arguably, the 'spirit of the competition' is for an athlete to be faster than anyone else which enables them to win the race. This can be achieved by training, eating nutritious foods, using good equipment etc. All these activities are undertaken to improve performance, which is consistent with the 'spirit of competition'. It would therefore make no sense to suggest that doping to improve performance is any different.

4) Drugs are bad because they are not 'natural'.
Consider testosterone, EPO, and growth hormones. Is it just to prohibit these substances on the basis of not being 'natural' when they occur naturally in our bodies, anyway? There is an inconsistency when considering that caffeine, sodium bicarbonate, creatine etc are not prohibited despite being no more or less 'natural' than the aforementioned, and have all been shown to improve performance.

This isn't intended to create war, just to remind that there can be two sides of the story. What do you think?

I wish all media outlets would get in the habit of putting an asterisks next to the names of all convicted dopers for the rest of their careers. That would help to shame them and give another incentive not to dope.

Depends what you want to hit. Such studies havent really been done. BUT: when you look at the effects of doping, there can be many physiological effects that last. EPO is a great example. It helps to increase red blood cell counts and thereby help you carry more oxygen. One can take EPO, have their RBC count increase and go off the drug. The red blood cells will stick around for a fair while, the epo is gone from your system.
Then one can consider that when you are on the juice, you can train harder, recover quicker and therefore have better training. Thats with drugs like testosterone, human growth hormone etc. Diuretics and metabolic aids such as AICAR dont last too long in the body, but they leave long lasting effects by helping you loose a stack of weight and enhance muscle endurance, giving you the ultimate “concentration camp” look.
Then theres the field of gene doping. This is rarely discussed in the media, however it is a very real possibility. It would not be too hard for a good biomedical scientist to give up looking for a cure for muscular dystrophy and just design retroviruses that help increase performance. Huge muscles, increased oxygen carrying capacity etc are entirely undetectable and last for a long time.
But then again, I cant put my finger on a study showing just how big these effects are after going off the drugs.

I was just wondering given that with just a 2 year penalty “if” you a caught, it could be seen as a penalty worth the gain long term for a pro if being on the juice raises you to a new level long term.

I think the “dangerous to health” risk is the clincher here. Although Fabio Casartelli died descending, I cannot name any other riders in their category. There are many more cases of riders dying from the dope, or suffering negative health effects. Now one can say that riding down a descent at 90km h is dangerous. Indeed it is, but this is all part of riding. Cycling is a sport we all love to participate in. That feeling of flying down a descent is all part of the experience. To be honest, i cant see any joy or sense of freedom that comes from sticking a needle into a vein.
Doping really is cheating. Even if it was allowed, then not everyone would want to take part. I believe that the “spirit” of competition (competing against others and enjoying riding your bike) is a bit different to the “aim” of competition (going faster than everyone else). Even if doping was allowed and everyone did it too, there would always be someone who would take it a bit too far and endanger themselves. Just look at how Tom Simpson died, or how Marco Pantani and his excessive personality drew him to hit the EPO so hard that it nearly cause him to die of anemia in hospital in 1996. Hence rider safety will always come to it.
Just have a think about what the “spirit of competition” really means and I think you will find some answers.

I'm not the biggest Vino fan (He's a little too full of himself for my liking), but the man served his suspension. If he's back on the juice, he'll get caught in time, and if he truly is clean, then well done…

sad day for cycling…… ? what with the other riders? lol

I agree with Joe. I wasn't thrilled to see Vino win, but at this point there is no evidence to say he's currently cheating. I see two possibilities, either 1) everyone is doping and most have ways to get around the doping controls and an unlucky few get caught or 2) doping doesn't have as big an effect on results as we imagine and a rider's innate abilities and training are the primary factor….so Vino's (and Millar's) results are consistent whether doping or not.

Whenver I see a revision of history to reflect the results had a doper not been in the race (with Gerro here) I always think it's simplistic. Cadel got second in the Tour when Rasmusen was thrown out, but he may have beaten Contador overall had Contador not had the assistance of a doped up Rasmusen on the summit finishes. Same thing here, the race may have played out so differently – Kolobnov wouldn't have had a breakaway partner, and Gilbert and Evans would be a two man chase group likely swallowed up by hte grouppo just before the line, leaving Andy Schleck the man with the spoils.

Good point. But Rasmussen was not thrown out of the 2007 Tour for a positive. He was thrown out for falsifying his whereabouts.

For the pros at least, I doubt theres been a race decided by equipment (excluding flats and other mechanical incident here) since Lemond beat Fignon in 1989 with the aid of clip-ons in the final Tour TT. Yes, there is lots of very expensive cycling gear available. Very little of it actually makes a substantial difference to speed (though some of the expensive gear is more comfortable, looks cool, etc. etc.). Fit just about any half-decent frame with Ultegra and a set of deep-dish wheels (and, no, you don't need Wade's Lightweights, something heavier and cheaper will do) and you've got a Tour-winning bicycle. The only complication is the requirement for a second TT bike.

haha.. Love it.. Going to be a very interesting Tour de France now, isn't it!!

I certainly found joy, and one could argue a sense of freedom when i was on EPO. The health risks with blood doping/drug taking under appropriate medical supervision is reasonably minimal. Remember kids, ask first self medicate later.
Has anyone thought about the trouble with AMGEN sponsoring the Tour of California? Certainly seems wrong to me.

“I didn't win because of Alberto but thanks to the whole team. It wouldn't have been possible to win today without all of them. Of course it was easier to control the attacks in the finale with the two of us. Alberto marked Schleck and I was able to counter-attack,” Vinokourov said.

From cyclingnews report, not sure how that compares with Vino being an ungrateful sob

Once a dope, always a dope! Doping takes the passion out of cycling.

I'm just happy that Valverde didn't win really, at least Vino has 'done his time' (2 years being an acceptable ban notwithstanding)

Valverde should not be racing

Vino was my pick to win and I'm not the least bit sad that he did. Here's why:

1. Up until quite recently (almost) everyone in the pro peleton was doped. If the en mass busting of the old guard, the recent drop in average speeds, and remarks about “not winning the Tour on mineral water” aren't evidence enough, there are plenty of anecdotes from talented riders coming back from Europe in disgust. I know two and I'm both anti-social and from a cycling backwater. Both were told, “Either let our doctors help you get fast or go home; you're wasting your time here.”

Fans asked for the preternatural; they got it. Then Festina happened and they suddenly started to care HOW they got it.

2. The difference between now and then is that dopers stand out now. Who didn't think think Ricco, Di Luca and Schumacher were dirty?? What Vino did wasn't anything he didn't do when a doped up Ulrich was chasing him around the pyrennes and is therefore credible to my eyes.

3. I don't trust these Euro labs. That one le Tour uses has a habit of finding only what they want to. They break double blinds all the time. They even break double blinds to illegally dole out blood samples to third parties.

4. There are rules, which have to be enforced fairly in order to have any meaning at all. Vino served his time. If you'd rather he came out bleating like Millar did, that's up to you, but remember that Millar didn't grow a conscience until the cops burst through his door and siezed his stash.

Totally agree. I read an interivew in Cycling News the other day with Ricco – what a complete Tossbag (and that's not just for the fact that he's dumped his wife with their 6 month old kid). Saying he has a brash personality is like saying Carl Williams was 'not really a people person'. Ricco and Vino are complete flogs, without any remorse and act like a ten year old.

Drug takers of all forms are liars, even the average punter popping disco biscuits on a Friday night lies about it. Fessing up is the minimum they should do, but that would mean not lying. Millar has said time and again that he was stupid, etc. and his effort in Roubaix (went hard but blew up) goes close to earning respect back in my mind.

Saying Vino has done so much for the sport is complete bollocks, he has used the sport and its fans with it. People doing so much for the sport are the club administrators helping out young riders, not drug cheats earning plenty and lying to the fans all day about it.

The sport is still administered by ex riders who would have doped, notice that none of them come out now with the “in my day..” stuff? Deathly silence from all the older guys for fear of that Pandora's box being opened. Riis at Saxo Bank is your classic example, what is he going to say to his riders? It will take a long time for these guys to die out, or someone with some balls to wipe it clean.

Vino and Ricco in the peleton is like seeing Ben Johnson out on the track again. I just wish we could condemn them to racing against horses and other assorted freak shows like Ben was left doing.

The fans should get in the faces of these cheats and tell them what they think, there's plenty of opportunities on the roads in these races.

As I said before, I can go indicating any research here. But I seriously doubt it. Take a look at Millar or Basso. Apparently come back clean. One man is on the “clean” team and one publishes his blood values online and works with Aldo Sassi rather than a gynecologist. Both of them have taken a big step back from the levels they were at pre-2 year ban.

I find the selective condemnation of Vino to be hilarious. I also find hilarious the assumption that Gerro is clean. Why? Because he an Aussie? Becasue he's your mate? I'm not saying he or anyone else is a doper – what I am saying is that we don't have a clue who is doping and who is not. Unless you share their room or train and race with them you simply cannot know.

Pro cycling has an enormous problem with doping. Look at the past winners list of L-B-L. As Ullrich himself said, 'Anyone who can't put one and one together about what happened in pro cycling is beyond my help.'

We know the controls don't work. Ullrich never tested positive. Nor did Basso. Not did Pantani. Nor did Zabel, Virenque, Mancebo, Riis, Valverde, etc etc. Pros have been doping to win since before Coppi. There's no reason to think that they are any cleaner now.

Don't hate the riders for having doped. It takes a special rider to stay in the peloton riding clean, and I don't think there are many of them about. Vino has been sat out for two years for doing what everyone else does. Why would he feel the need to apologise? Blame the UCI, blame the team directors, blame those riders who spit on the whistleblowers and force them out of the peloton. The only way to change things is to force change from those who wield the power, not the poor bloke on 35,000 euros who's just doing what he's told and holding out his arm and his arse when asked, to keep food on the table for his wife and kids.

Great win by Vino. I'd like to think he did it clean, and beat a clean peloton, but I doubt it.

I'm not sure why a few people have said that I'm selective on my condemnation of various dopers. Vino just happens to have an abrasive personality in my opinion. Perhaps it's cultural or lost in translation – I don't know. He's given me some of the best and most exciting cycling moments I can remember. The guy has been training his ass off since he was 13yrs old and I'm sure there have been many clean victories. The difference between Vino and many others is his approach to his suspension/return. For the record, I think David Millar's righteousness after his comeback is just as absurd.

Also, with regards to your comment “we don't have a clue who is doping and who is not. Unless you share their room or train and race with them you simply cannot know. “.

I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty. The Biological Passport and random testing gives a pretty damn good indication of what's going on. As close as you can get without being in their room. Sure there will always be ways for cheats to stay one step ahead of the system, but it's a sad way to enjoy the sport of cycling assuming that riders who have no history of drugs and show no irregularities are hiding something.

Wade, did you see Mike Tomalaris' straw poll on Twitter? :)

Thanks. Just found it and retweeted it.

Well, if you're classing riders as innocent until proven guilty, why do you say that you can discount his win and that Gerrans effectively finished tenth? Vino hasn't tested positive upon his return, and if you're being consistent you'll applaud his win until he has an AAF. You're saying that you'll give other riders the benefit of the doubt, but not Vino, because he once doped and has 'an abrasive personality?' Only bad guys dope?

I think the position that a rider is not doping unless he tests positive is incredibly naive as indicated by the rogue's gallery of riders who have been found to be dopers but never tested positive. Millar, Basso, Ullrich showed no irregularities and had no history of doping either (if you discount Ulle's little disco biscuit episode). The UCI held up Basso as an example of someone with impeccable blood values, when we all know he was sending tens of thousands of euros to a gynaecologist for 'training advice.' For all its vaunted success, I am aware of no suspension of a rider for adverse blood passport values. Each one I have heard claimed, has upon further inspection, been an AAF of other parameters in the normal way.

What I don't like about the 'Hate Vino! Hate Ricco!' type attitude is that it breeds a 'few bad apples' mentality. All the evidence is quite to the contrary – it's not a 'few bad apples', but organised programs, usually emanating from team management. It's easy to scapegoat someone like Vinokourov, because it allows to us to think we're doing something against the nasty dopers. It's a lot harder to look closer to home and demand real change in cycling. It's hard to live with the idea that many of the riders we cheer for are probably doping, but it's the riders themselves, usually after their retirement, who are saying it themselves. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

The cheaters have been so far ahead of the game for so many years that to say “yeah but <insert rider x name> never tested positve in <insert year>” is really not strengthening any sort of arguement.

I think only now has the UCI begun to catch up. Not just with the bio-passport (which has its flaws and needs better enforcement, but is the best they have for the moment) but with also the right to retrospectively test samples years down the track. In addition there are teams like Garmin, (the now defunct) Credit Agricole and the lower level teams (USA seems to be quite onto it) who are pushing the 'ride clean' message – so it's out there.

It's sad Bob that you view the sport that way, but hey I'm happy to let the haters hate.

I also saw it mentioned (in reference to Sasha) that “arseholes have as much potential to harm the sport as dopers”. I do not disagree. And I think this is what CT is really getting at.

I am not a 'hater', if that's what you are implying. In fact my point is that we 'hate' people like Vino all too easily. The riders who get caught seem to cop all the bIame, when I think they're mostly pawns in a much bigger system. I just think that the prism of black/white is too simplistic a way to look at doping in pro cycling.

Hang on, based on my recollection, Vino was caught for blood doping not taking performance enhancing drugs. He used his Father's blood (allegedly) to put himself back to the max allowed 50point hemocrit level during a multi stage tour. There are plenty of legal ways to come to a one day event with that level: Oxygen tents/ altitude training etc. In a grand tour your hemocrit level will reduce over time so blood doping can assist. In a one day race it is not some much a factor. Not sure what that 10 to 15% refers to in Vino's case. So no, he was not busted for injecting drugs, as many on the 9 legend's post no doubt have. He did his time and is back in the sport. Give the guy a break. The testing is better than ever, the racing is cleaner but there are still no doubt methods of cheating that go on. I still think the peleton is far cleaner than an AFL game. FIFA doesn't publish any drug cases and Golf has the most positives of any sport. Warnie also got caught, did time and still plays. Why are cycling fans so judgemental?

The last paragraph Bob highlights a very relevant point.

What I take from this analysis is that we have to love what we do for the intrinsic benefits it offers. I reflect from time to time on the negative world view that some outside cycling have of our sport, that we are all dopers or leg shaving posers or both. Nothing warms me more than reflecting on the joys of being in the air, sunshine, with a few mates pushing one's limits, gaining strength and loving the moment. These simple joys may be part of the reason that I have not progressed further in the sport than I have (limited natrual ability might come into it too). What I enjoy, beyond measure is looking forward to my next ride and getting out amongst it, (and then getting back home/ to the office and checking out cyclingtipsblog.com!

You were on EPO? If so, the freedom you felt probably was due to the complete lack of conscience. What did you say to the riders you beat while on it?

It's complete toss to think the health risk with taking drugs “under appropriate medical supervision” is minimal. That argument is stock standard for steroid dealers in gyms “nah, this can't hurt you it's the good stuff”.

Firstly, a normal athlete should not be prescribed EPO, so the medical supervision is automatically inappropriate. If the medico compromises you on that, what else will they let happen? I'd be willing to bet you haven't had a cardiogram lately, because that's the first sign – a heart attack in a seemingly fit person aged under 40. The others are a pulmonary embolism or stroke. In the 3 years between 1987, when EPO first became available in Europe, and 1990, 18 Dutch and Belgian cyclists died suddenly of heart attacks. I'm guessing they did so under 'appropriate medical supervision'.

Doping is dangerous to your health. That is a fact. EPO increases the thickness of the blood, increasing the risk of blood clotting which can block blood vessels causing a heart attack or stroke. Use of EPO also causes hypertension, and can lead to seizures and congestive heart failure. EPO also causes an abnormally high level of Ferritin, a protein that stores iron in the body. An excess of iron can lead to liver problems, including cancer. It may not be while you are taking it, but you may have stressed your heart while racing on it that the damage is not until years later. Do you want that in your mind while walking with your kids?

Doping without seemingly any retribution leads more and more to try it, which increases the likelihood of deaths too. Vino is a dirty cheat, but he's back winning so why wouldn't kids give it a shot. Vino is still alive, pretty strong it seems too. Fast forward to him at home aged 41 with a pacemaker and unable to do much physical activity, waiting for the day when his ticker stops while he sleeps.

Although I really despise drug cheats, I hope it doesn't happen to you.

Before you go too far, this post may explain where scooter is coming from:

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/12/epo-tria…

I'm only running with the vibe you're giving.

Sure there's many shades of grey to the debate, and can appreciate that there's a tipping point where there's that many doing 'it' (doping) that it's either you're in or you're out – due to simply not being able to be competitive.

Moreover, the cyclists have said that they would support a doping control system that was a lot more accurate than what is currently on offer. So there's partially an onus on the UCI to try and meet this challenge. Whilst at the same time I do feel the riders need to be proactive in their stance on the matter.

All this is besides the piont, for me, with Vino anyway. My issue is, as CT alluded to in his original post, his cavalier attitude that he took to the sport upon his exit. I'm not asking him to be a David Millar, who I think is at least trying, however badly, to bring about some positive change. But I am at least asking him to professionally at least conduct himself in a manner that sets an example for the younger riders.

I deal with what I can see, and what I saw was a jumped up egomanic who, once caught, still could not accept that he was wrong. That's why I was unhappy with his win.

“My issue is, as CT alluded to in his original post, his cavalier attitude that he took to the sport upon his exit. … I deal with what I can see, and what I saw was a jumped up egomanic who, once caught, still could not accept that he was wrong.”

I understand your point of view – my gut feels the same way. I can't say I didn't squirm when I saw it was Vino on the attack. But like I said – why should he apologise or pretend to be sorry if everyone else is doing it too? If you accept the premise that a significant proportion of pros are doping (a big qualification, I know) then Vino's failure to kneel down and beg forgiveness looks less like the actions of a jumped up egomaniac, and more like those of a man who simply cannot be bothered to play the media game, when everyone else is playing with the hot sauce too.

Wearing a “Vino4eva” jersey with your own photo on it on the other hand – now THAT is the mark of a jumped up egomaniac.

Thanks for the debate.

I think the reason so many cycling fans (myself included) feel so strongly about Vinokourov’s return to cycling and especially his return to the winner’s list is that we had invested so much in the cult that was Vino that when he was busted for doping we felt an enormous sense of betrayal. And to Vino? His two years out of the sport seems to be nothing more than an inconvenience. In fact the closest he has even come to acknowledging that he had actually done something wrong was in his comments after taking his victory yesterday. Such hubris leaves me sick to my stomach. Yes, Vino has complied with the letter of the law but he hasn’t come close to comprehending just how far he transgressed against the spirit of the law.

I for one am not interested in throwing him out of the sport (unless and until he is busted again) but I certainly reserve my right to boo his victories, cheer his misfortune and give him a mouthful every time I see him turn the pedals in anger.

I guess the UCI can decide anything is illegal in their sport if they want. Racers who take out a licence agree to these terms. Some rules that they introduce make very little/no sense but they are still there none the less, and penalties will apply no matter how stupid they might seen. You want to dope? Sure, just dont get a licence..

Besides, I'm sure its every parents dream to have to supply EPO and HGH to their kids just so little johnny can win his under 10's events…

Ash

Yeh, well he could have said he did it in a medical trial..

I'd be a bit worried about this, and sounds like it's best you've finished it. Lots of Aussies do medical trials in the UK for beer money, but you sign your life away and there is no way they could have prevented you from heart attack in your sleep (as has happened a lot). There was a clinical trial a couple of years ago in the UK where 6 people suffered multiple organ failure and two were seriously ill (I think the Aussie guy survived but is pretty rooted for life).

I still think Vino winning is not good for the sport.

I thought he looked guilty of something at the end of the race & he looked like he did it pretty easy.

What I saw was a fantastic bike race full of the drama, excitement, opportunity and the disappointment of what could have been that all great bike races have. Did it look like one man was head and shoulders above the rest? No. Did it look like Vino was the strongest there? Again, no.

Watch the race. Vino counters a couple of times straight after a dangerous move containing Contador and Schleck is caught. Did he get far? Not really. He was hovering 100m in front not really going anywhere. It struck me as more of a move to keep the pressure on for Contador then a dash for the finish line. What happened next was that Kolobnev was the first to react and jumped quite easily across to Vino. Anybody that watched Amstel and Fleche would not have been surprised to see this sort of move from the Russian. He did similar on both previous occasions and it took some chasing to get him back each of those occasions. What he missed at both Amstel and Fleche was someone to swap off turns with. In Vino he found his man. The favourites made a mistake letting Kolobnev go not Vino.

Evans and Gilbert should be commended for the efforts they made in the last 15km. They both looked like they were there to win. Valverde, well there we do have someone that should not be racing at the moment, he didn't seem to know what he wanted. The rest?

What is Vino guilty of a Leige? He is guilty of having a go and he is guilty of recognising a chance to win and grabbing on and not letting go. Both hallmarks of all champion cyclists.

guilty of doping perhaps? is that what you are saying?

Being a true champion is about more than just results. A little humility and respect for the fans (and the sport!) goes a long way and should be a given in a sport that would not exist without its supporters.

I can understand why some riders choose to dope, or think they have to, but a thought should be spared for the riders that work hard and race with dignity only to be usurped by someone with an unfair advantage.

Just my 2 pence.

This word “classy” keeps coming up, and maybe this is just my pet hate, but I think your 'class' is defined not just by what you do in your sport, but is backed up by what you do outside it as well. I don't care how skilled Tiger Woods is as a golfer, he is not a “classy” player even on the course (imo) now we know how he lied and cheated his way through life.

Same with Vino, and I'm not even talking about doping – he's full of himself: “i rode with class bla bla bla” and the world has enough arrogant p*&$ks without another one. But add the fact he hasn't repented properly, and this is just ridiculous. No class at all. And he hasn't done anything for cycling – he's hurt it more than he's helped it – he's in the red mate.

Vino is guilty of being a d1ckhead. That's what you are when you cheat, deny it when caught, show no remorse then bitch about it after you win again having done your time (only two years, when 4-5 seems more fitting).

Whatever tactical moves he makes won't change that. He will never be considered a champion cyclist, the same way Chris Skase will never be considered a good businessman.

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-cyc…

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/m…

http://www.sportsscientists.com/search/label/Cy…

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-…

Hate to be the one to break the news… only the monumentally unlucky or stoopid get caught. By far the greatest majority have been caught by the cops and justice system not the testing regime.

No test for autologous blood doping – not even the much vauted bio passport yet it's effect is identical to EPO.

hmmm, recon anyone not doing something is probably not in the game…

http://bikepure.org/2010/04/frei-admits-doping-…

latest comments from Michael Ashenden re the bio passport following Vino's win
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2010/bio…

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