Landis Goes Postal

Floyd is a drop kick, a lunatic, an alcoholic and a nut job. The problem for cycling is that what he has said over the last day is true. Pity he didn't come clean four years ago.

What a s**t fight now.

So this is a case of the end does justify the means?

F that S. What next Landis? Are you going to tell us that Santa and the Easter Bunny don't really exist.

As I Tweeted before, “As little credibility as Floyd Landis has, I'm not ready to completely dismiss his allegations. But I sure hope he's wrong.”

As much as these allegations (if true) would damage cycling in the short term and The Lance Armstrong Company, I would much prefer these allegations to be investigated rather than swept under the rug. I love this sport, but I want it to be clean.

(However, if he's making this up…)

I agree with Wade! What a shame that an event like this may slightly overshadow two of the great stories of cycling in years… Richie in pink as a rookie on grand tour and Cadel's struggle with what is obviously a full on crazy Giro. Lets not forget the T.O.Cali is going to be amazing tomorrow up Big Bear. Whatever the merits of his comments, credibility is the correct word. Cred with timing. Cred with lack of acceptance of his initial bust. Cred with the public… taking money based on a different version of evnts. It smells bad and if Landis is going to fart in an elevator he would be better not also sh*ting his pants… that is hard to clean.

“if Landis is going to fart in an elevator he would be better not also sh*ting his pants… that is hard to clean.” I just about choked on my lunch I laughed so hard!

The problem for Landis is that he followed the “deny, deny, deny, deny” path. He could very well be telling the truth but the fact he lied for years about his drug taking weighs heavily against him in my eyes. Why should I believe anything he says now? It does come across as someone having a dummy spit because he got caught out. And why now? Why wait three years to finally come clean? It would've been better if he just manned up and admitted the truth when he got caught. He could very well be telling the truth but people are always going to be dubious about it. Then there's a fact that he's ripped off so many people who gave him money for his defence – that's simply disgusting.

However, I'm prejudiced towards Lance Armstrong. I really don't want him to be a drug cheat because I can't help but admire him. I want him to be clean for the simple fact that he's achieved some amazing things for someone who should be dead.

But it does matter CT. it does matter because all the hope, inspiration and strength that cancer sufferers and survivors have drawn from Armstrong have been under the guise that he is clean. His constant denial of performance enhancement and active pursuit of those who have sought to tarnish his name through accusations to the contrary have shown his determination to uphold this image. If he has infact lied, it's a major slap in the face to the very communities he represents – both cancer patients and cyclists alike.

The biggest disappoint for me is that we have 2 races on at the moment with Australians leading both & doing brilliantly yet our focus is on the past – distant past too. To marry the past with the present is not correct due to the changes that have occurred in the meantime.

Yes some dodgy shit happened (even if it was only 5 to 8 years ago) but a lot has improved / changed since then and lets concentrate on the present.

Why do you think LA won't be racing the tour?

Landis is a joke. He has changed his story so often he could become our next Opposition Leader.

I totally agree….It would be great to know that LA has been drug free his whole career, but does it really matter at this point? Like you say, he's done a lot for the sport and for cancer so let's leave it at that.

Ever since Landis' amazing climbing day in the 2006 TdF I've known he was juiced to the max….amazing it too until now to finally admit it.

I'm blown away by your photos each and ever post. Awesome.

A lot of good can come of this, it gives guys like Richie a fighting chance at winning a Grand Tour clean. Seeing Armstrong go down will without a doubt scare the hell out of anybody who has, is or is thinking about doping.
“Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

I predict that there will be such a media circus and a backlash of millions of European fans that Lance won’t go to the Tour. Not to mention any legal investigations that take place because of this. I don’t think we’ll see the end of this anytime soon and more things may start to be uncovered.

The guy's fate was sealed the day his parents decided to call him Floyd. I mean come on, it's a friggin weird arse name! I'd say the 4 million wedgies he copped during his high school years have given him a dim view of humanity and are probably the cause of his “me against the world” type of mentality. That is to say the accusations against Armstrong are most likely bullshit

Wait a second, we just sit back while he gets Phinney, Brackawhatever and a whole new generation on the program? Remember the recent U23 racers who knew how to beat the test? You don't think Phar$trong knows even more w/ the “Formula 1″ team he has. Bullshit. The UCI & WADA publicly encourage dopers to come forward but now they don't like what they hear. McQuaid must go.

Oh, I doubt they are bullshit. Flandis isn't the first team mate to come out with a story like this. The first one that did from the old Motorola team was basically an eye witness to doping, and unlike Floyd he had credibility, hadn't been busted but came clean and told all at the SCA trial.

I don't really care what Armstrong has done in other areas of his life, this story is about doping. Not cancer.

He should pay the price. Like I said earlier, shame about the timing though. Flandis should have stepped up to the plate in 06.

Lance didn't exactly address Landis' allegations. A wise man once told me, “Where there's smoke, there's fire or there's a smoke machine. But there's never nothing.”
Go http://torosvecchi.wordpress.com/ for a longer version of that.

This story goes a bit deeper than just exposing a guy that came back from cancer to win the tour 7 times. Lance Armstrong has made a lot of money from his 'fairytale' & as a result, a lot of people who think they are donating to a cancer charity are lining his pockets.

To say that it doesnt matter whether Lance was clean or dirty is wrong, and it is a disgrace. Of course it matters. Integrity is everything.
My father had cancer, and he thought Armstrong was an arrogant pig – & Lance certainly didn't give him 'hope'.

Let's face it – anyone with half a brain has at least suspected Armstrong of being not quite what he appears. His transformation from one day rider to tour rider (including the magical 'cadence increase' & his weight loss that didn't actually happen), his links with Dr Ferrari, various testimony from ex team mates, his 'on the record 'donation' to the UCI, this article http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/m…… anyone who believes the fairytale needs to get their head out of the sand.

Is there a chance that LA is/was clean? Is there a chance he actually won 7 tours clean when its been proven that a large number of people behind him were not? Does EPO etc make much difference to performance? you bet. As much as I love the LA story its probably a lie but hey really I don't care. I agree that LA has done so much more for cycling and cancer awareness that whats in the past should stay there. I'm not stupid enough to believe he was one of very few clean riders in the mid – late 90's but I think now in 2010 there is no point in tarnishing his image. What for? To give some title from 2002 to the 10th placed rider?

As for Landis what is his motivation to bring it up now? After denying it for so long and taking innocent peoples money. Writing a whole book on the subject. I mean why? If he had actually come out with this back in 06 it could have been a massive story. Now it will be a blib on the radar of cycling that won't rate a mention in a few weeks.

As LA says…. Its all about credibility and Landis lost all of his a long time ago.

I like your “where there's smoke there's fire” quote but disagree with it entirely. When accusations are made you need to look at the motivation of the person making the accusation. In this case the Floydster stands to gain from accusing LA – spreading the guilt around, blaming someone else, $$ for interviews or a tell all book etc etc. Others who have accused LA in the past have also had their own motivation – I'm sure Greg Lamond is pretty protective of his legacy as the “original” American cycling legend. It's very easy for heresay and rumour to take on a life and truth of its own to the point where it becomes accepted. The only thing that matters is that LA has never been busted. And before someone comes in and says “yeah but” forget it. The fact is he's never been busted.

LOL – Thanks CT for your efforts on creating an unmissable blog!

I had a great chuckle to myself at that one too.

Hopefully there are no dopers in the C grade SKCC comp tomorrow! ;-)

Once a dope, always a dope, Landis certainly is.

Interesting reading Lances books and where he references Landis, his upbringing, his firebrand nature and the relationship between the two pre and post Postal.

I guess that's the end of Landis' pro career (and yes pro aptly lowercase).

Let's not forget – Go Mick!

Can't see why Lance would'nt race the TdF?

Oh, just reading the tweets, Lance out of ToC due to crash

Manure burns pretty well, too.

However one thing has been very clear to me. When LA talks about this, he doesn't explicitly deny doping. He has some careful words that almost-but-not-quite construct a negative statement in that general direction.

I'm not surprised that it leaves journalists twitching – they are people very sensitive to shades of language.

As a completely irrelevant nobody I am left with the impression that he used to, but doesn't any more, but would rather not talk about it in case he slips up.

??? WTF Wade? no good digging up past? let's leave valverde alone then. etc etc. if it's true, he's hoodwinked so many people that believed in him. sure, he beat other people that juiced up but that's not the point IF IT's TRUE- the main point it's that he's still there standing denying it….your logic that the end justify the means…well, then cyclists can still continue to dope

and not just that…if it's true, and i'm only coming from that perspective – it damages the sport now becuase it proves the whole time what people suspected and ridiculed it for…i agree with your point that they were all on it, so he still had to only beat people who were also cheating – but people laugh at the sport because LA made all these claims about his innocence and being unfairly targeted…he would look a big fool and doesn't matter if he's fighting cancer….people will still fight cancer and donate to the fight regardless of him…..that is such a bad argument. it also goes to the heart of Lance Corp – they make people look like fools because they wanted to come out against the omerta….and you're saying that's OK in the name of cancer?

Valverde has been caught and his sanction has only been recognized by CONI. That is the difference. The fact is, Lance hasn't returned a positive result for Floyd's accusations. Yes, I have an opinion on Lance's past performances, but how long do we keep digging? No one will ever be satisfied until something turns up.

http://video.bicycling.com/video/ATOC-Lance-Arm…
Great video from inside Radio Shack car, tweeted by Total Rush!

Lance not racing the Tour?

CT please don't be offended but honestly this rubbish shouldn't get any airtime at all. In my opinoin it's sour grapes of the highest order and doesn't deserve the column inches everyone is wasting on it. Pity those named now have to come out & waste their time & energy defending themselves on vague accuatations, any legal team would rip it to shreds.
Lets enjoy the great racing and hope this all dies down quickly…

[Lauren wrote:"The problem for Landis is that he followed the "deny, deny, deny, deny" path. He could very well be telling the truth but the fact he lied for years about his drug taking weighs heavily against him in my eyes. Why should I believe anything he says now?"]

^ this

[Lauren wrote: "Then there's a fact that he's ripped off so many people who gave him money for his defence - that's simply disgusting."]

^and this

From there we can just stop. It's like a homeless metho-addicted dude accosting you on the street, telling you that Telstra shares are going to drop tomorrow. They may very well be about to drop – but you know you can't trust this source of info, hence you don't even contemplate doing something based on this particular piece of advise.

However for those who wish to take it further, this is relevant:

[Ben wrote:"I agree that LA has done so much more for cycling and cancer awareness that whats in the past should stay there."]

This is true, AND practicalities mean there's no point going back and stripping people of titles – if you were going to do that you'd need be 110% sure that whoever ended up with the title was clean. So you'd need up-to-date doping analysis of say the top 10 or 20 (+?) place-getters (given that so many of them were doped), which I'd imagine is impossible. Bjarne certainly hasn't been stripped of his title now eh.

As for Lance making money…erm, yeah actually let's not get into that, it's a bit silly. He's given to cycling, he's given to cancer research, he doesn't have to make a difference to e_v_e_r_y cancer patient in the world for anti-cancer effort to be valid, he just needs to make a significant contribution, which he has – that's enough.

And as much as he has been self-focused, he's actually pretty balanced these days, and there are others who have a much worse way of expressing their ego, in the history of cycling and even in the peleton right now.

Wade, i know that's the difference. but you said, 'Was Lance ever racing dirty? I don’t think it matters. Look at the dodgy guys he beat in seven Tours. Dirty or clean it’s an amazing feat.' this to me seems to say if evidence came about – enough like Valverde's – it wouldn't matter to you because of the cancer/cycling thing. if true, he built his image on saying he did it clean and how amazing it was he did it clean and had cancer…. i'm not saying anything about the digging thing…these are accusations that have come to light and seem to confirm alot of what other people have said under oath and settled out of court over. and the many rumours. many of these accused are still racing, still enjoying the sport without sanction. and not just racing, RUNNING the sport…including the UCI. many have rumoured you can buy off people for doping testing and if this is true, then it goes to the heart of UCI's processes..it's not just about lance so they should dig away…in the name of the sport not in spite of it….

yeah wade I really would like to hear if Lance would be riding the tour again this year or not.

but it is coming up soon.. what is it.. 6 weeks?

Lance has returned 2 positives, one for Cemalyt and one for epo. The '99 test is a positive, just not one that he can legally be sanctioned for. It is a stronger positive than Valverde's in fact, who's only proved crime is the intention to dope. There is no doubt Lance has doped, it's convincing the majority that this is the case. Landis is the case in point, people actually believed until yesterday that he was a clean rider. It's amazing what some spin can do. For a small time pro rider it would be game over, but for the media machine that is Armstrong, supported by one of the biggest brands in the world who stands to loose a lot over a positive result, these facts are easily swept aside. The sport can not move forward in regards to doping until it gets rid of its Skeleton's in the closet. At least Landis is making steps towards this.

Here's quite a good blog post on Floyd

http://www.cycle-smart.com/blog/2010/05/20/pret…

I find it interesting that the literature i have read states that the spoke in detail about drug taking and how it works, so what if you are a pro cyclist of course you probably know how it works and how to beat the system

Does not mean you actually do it

Wade, that is, by far, the best headline I have read in ages.
Had to say it.

If Lance had of walked away and let it be at the end of '05 I doubt this would have come up. But he returned, larger than life and (dare I suggest) larger than cycling. No man is bigger than the sport and do we really want to leave a legacy to the kids that Lance got the titles despite cheating or would we rather say that he was eventually caught, as cheaters (normally) never prosper.

If Landis had been the first to say this then it might make it easier to dismiss it based on his character – but fact is he's simply joined an increasing list of people who have testified (in some cases in court) to Armstrong's doping. Betsy Andreu and the SCA Promotions case anyone? Now appears she's not as 'confused' as Lance implied she might have been.

None of this is good for cycling, but now that the horse is well and truly bolted I say let this run its course – in the long run I think the public are owed a sport that has a higher level of transparency then it presently does.

well my yellow “go phloyd” t shirt (bought before the allegation at the tdf) is now in the rag pile. i believed landis. i don't now. go lance!
the shut up legs shirt will have get worn more often, aswell as the livestrong

I don't like the comments “Lance Armstrong has done a lot for the sport and for cancer, so even if he wasn't clean the whole time it doesn't matter…”

Yes, it does matter.

No one deserves the kind of recognition Lance has received over the years, if they did not earn it by winning 100% clean. I love the guy, but his fall from grace will be spectacular if it comes out he wasn't clean the whole time – and if he wasn't – he deserves what's coming, regardless of how many lovely things he's done since, to try and make up for his indiscretions…

Everyone loves a champion, but a champion who achieved it by beating better guys who ride an honest race, is no champion.

…there is one thing that makes me smile reading these sorts of articles…

…it makes me appreciate how great club racing is… where it's simply not worth doping and you know if you win, or someone beats you, they've done it properly…

Look, I'm not saying he did or didn't, but:

(A) of course this would have come up even if Lance was retired – this is about Floyd not getting into the ToC. Even if Lance was retired Floyd still would have named all the other people, plus Lance cos that will get even bigger headlines, retired or not. From Floyd's point of view, Lance is a powerbroker who could have helped him and his team get a spot.

(B) So there are those who've said things about Lance, sometimes under oath – this is smoke, but as DNA evidence is sometimes showing these days, in criminal cases of wrongful conviction (for murder, rape etc) smoke does not always equal fire. And there is a crime called 'perjury' for a reason – people sometimes have motive to lie under oath.

(C) This leaves us with a big fat “maybe”, which is where we need to say “let's ensure our current detection methods and penalties are 100% working” because dredging up stuff from years and years ago that's been rehashed so many times, is not going to provide a more conclusive result. Floyd needs evidence to make a re-trial worthwhile, and evidence is apparently something he's lacking. Hence it's not worth doing this to Lance, or cycling.

(D) If we really want to pursue people who “apparently” cheated with drugs, then after you're done with Lance, you better go start digging for dirt on say, Big Mig, cos he was the first to win TdF 5 times in a row eh. Must be something wrong with that huh, since doping was definitely prevalent in the 90s.

Or we could just focus on being positive and observant now, which obviously gets my vote. Lance, at 38, has held his own against the best in the world with stringent doping testing applied – in his early 30s, he would have been killing it, regardless.

And again, if you want a “higher level of transparency”, then I don't just want to know if Lance doped or not – I want to know who did and didn't dope, in say the entire top 50 of every TdF he won – if you're going to a search, that's the only level of investigation which would be fair (otherwise you're potentially just handing the title to another doper), and it is of course an impossibility.

I predict that with the Tour coming up so soon there will be such a media circus and a backlash of millions of European fans that Lance won't race in France. I don't think we'll be hearing the end of this anytime soon and more things will be uncovered. I always thought Lance should have left things the way they were and stayed retired.

No offense taken Flinty. I was getting bombarded with emails and moderating comments like mad in the post about Richie Porte in Pink. I preferred to provide a separate forum for this topic rather that have the post below tainted with this subject.

i think 98-99% of what you are saying is right. unfortunately it does happen in club racing aswell, not that the club can afford to foot the bill for testing to prove otherwise.
Some people will always take the health risk to win a race. Doping is in clubs, believe it. What makes it worse is that the doper probably doesn't have the knowledge to do it properly and may be doing more harm to themselves than they realize.
Club racing is great, relatively fair and generally honest, but don't think there is not the odd bad apple thrown in.

I see your point re the upcoming backlash Wade, but i don't think the French press or euro fans will keep Lance away, I'd think the TdF organising committee would turn a blind eye. I also think Lance's media camp will put a strong spin on the situation and undermine Landis.

Don't forget Fly V also racing the ToC – all the best to Bernie & Cantwell, both great bike riders! Just watching stage 1 and great to see Cantwell up there mixing it with the HTC train!

The other reason why it matters is that many people concerned are likely to be in a position to influence what goes on in the pro peloton for a long time to come. For instance, Landis has apparently mentioned Matt White, the Aussie rider who's now a DS for Garmin-Transitions.

If it turned out to be true (and obviously it's a very big if, given the source of the allegations) White would at the very least have some real explaining to do if he were to keep his current job. How could a guy who was (again, if the allegation was to somehow be substantiated) an unrepentant drug cheat himself be trusted to oversee a clean team?

If Lance is innocent then does it matter how long we keep digging? If nothing turns up all well and good, however he has put him self back into the spot light, so really the shovels can say out.

Floyd seems to be nuts but I feel his allegation have some truth to them.
Cycling as a sport is now in a tough spot again should it all be brushed under the carpet? I don't know.
How long can this type of thing continue before it all comes crashing down. Another sad day for the sport.

I have heard a rumour that Lance is trying to “buy” the TdF. Is there any truth to this?

Haven't met Floyd but don't like what i read, don't like blogs either but here i am. I have met Mellow Johnny though one on one for a reasonable length of time and am impressed by the man i met. We talked family kids and stuff and by his own admission he is nothing like the hardcore asshole he used to be. Floyd well he ripped off thousands of people with his Floyd Fareness Fund to fight for his innocence! wow what a joke now?

Until proven otherwise i will stick to the old adage to take people as you find them and as i said before i found the man to be amazingly generous of spirit and time. To listen to him and see his face light up when he speaks of his kids and then ask me about mine was amazing. It was truly a meeting that i will never forget. So i remain firmly on the LA train, however Vino holds no fascination for me now same as Rasmussen and all the others. I would just like 5 mins alone with either to explain just how they broke my heart and the hearts of many other mere mortals who were amazed at their panache and daring.

True, yet do we not rejoice in a current world road champion whom was under the team management of former rider acknowledged to be part of a systematic doping scheme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Stephens

There is obviously something that sparked in Landis to go ahead and make these accusations public, but the delay in admitting, and the timing in which he did, somewhat taints them. Landis' accusations, in my opinion, are merely a way of deflecting the guilt of finally admitting that he actually doped.
What Lance has achieved in the world of cycling has changed the lives of so many cancer affected people. Lance came back to cycling to promote awareness of his foundation, not to win the tour for an eighth time. Landis has simply opened up another way for cynics to take Lance out. Livestrong is Lance, and I don't want to see either go down.

Here's an interview with UCI chief Pat McQuaid on Irish radio. Includes part of another interview with Paul Kimmage.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2010/0520/drivetimespor…

Don't worry; if they can't even dope themselves up to B grade, they're doing it wrong..

when is floyd going to jail?
fraud, contempt of court
what a douchebag

Agree, and well stated PK.

If the sport is to be clean, then any and all should be subject to scrutiny; regardless of their standing within the sport. To me, a comment such as “it doesn't matter” is the same as sticking our head in the sand.

Of course Landis is a total douche and deserves anything he gets for giving false evidence under oath.

Ultimately the whole situation makes me very sad for a sport I love, but have lost faith in its fairness. The continual list of dopers still being caught, combined with the smoke around LA & others would seem to indicate that the sport is far from clean.

Couldn't agree more, it's a classic ethical and philosophical debate. Has society learnt anything from the past bandwagons?

I've got a great idea to help blind children. I'm going to rob this rich fella up the road and start a school for the visually challenged. Then my PR machine will kick into gear and everyone will love me, believe everything I say and never question my word.

Pull your head WW

a.) read the emails. Has nothing to do with the ToC snub. And Landis Tweeted early this year he had something cooking for 2010 that would rock the cycling world.

b.) there are lab tests that conclusively show Lance doped. Plus testimonies. How much more do you need? And as for perjury, Lance also testified that he raced clean in the case with SCA Promotions for bonus' that were owed to him that SCA were withholding as they had reason to doubt that he was riding clean.

c.) ??? Again, how much more do you need.

d.) If there were the same amount of evidence for Big Mig then I would say go for it. Because we can go back an retrospectively test every other winner is a baseless reason not to pursue those that we can.

And if you want to go on about what's fair and what isn't, what about all those who tried to race clean and win but couldn't because dopers beat them or because Armstrong raced with a team that were juiced up and they never stood a chance of winning. Again, not investigating because it's not “fair” is ridiculous.

There are plenty of other companies besides Enron who have dodgy business practices. In that case it was terribly unfair that the Enron executives were tried and held accountable for their actions. See what a slippery slope you create.

I agree with what your saying, but however your analogy is pretty far off from what I'm talking about.

Armstrong also committed perjury too.

Be careful what you wish for….

Umm, is anyone else uncomfortable with finding coverage of Floyd Landis' claims on a couple of very widely read cycling websites flanked by RadioShack promotions? On cyclingnews it's kinda subtle – “Explore the Amgen Tour of California with RadioShack” under the Races and Results banner. The full screen ad in the margins on VeloNews made it particularly difficult to concentrate on the content of their articles with a large image of Lance Armstrong appearing to watch over every word I read. A little disconcerting to say the least…

Ye-up, first I wrote a point-for-point answer to this, but actually I think everything I've said still stands. It's a judgement call and this is mine. Your main thrust seems to be there is “evidence” that now needs to be re-examined because Landis has put his word against Lance.

That honestly, means nothing, regardless of what Landis has done in the past, good or bad. If the other evidence had been strong enough in the first place (and it existed), then I assume Lance would have been banned when it was found. Landis talking now will not make those tests appear, or make it possible to determine which approx 20% (according to some rider estimates) of the peleton were riding clean and were “disadvantaged”. Enron is quite different given the nature of the evidence and who the prosecutors were.

What I see you reacting to is information from those who have something to gain from making noise, or tearing down a tall poppy. Landis potentially has a huge axe to grind, and reporters like Paul Kimmage would go out of business if they weren't pointing fingers at someone, and let's face it, the bigger the accusation the better. But where's the proof? Where's the printed copy of the test in the newspaper? Without corroboration, it's just maybe.

So if WADA investigate and find something, so be it, that will prove it. But I'm not going to worry about it until they reach the END of that process. Think about what happened to Mauro S on BMC this year…so sad that mud is sticking, ruining people and teams' seasons, with so little 'evidence' in the first place. In Mauro's case there was none eh – he just happened to have rode for that team.

Btw, timing and content of the emails do not have to be connected – Landis could easily have requested them leaked at this time, after the ToC snub, but you wouldn't see that in the emails themselves now would you.

Enron is no different, it's using your very own logic.

MS was very different to Lance, he didn't have people already testifying to his use of PED's and additionally does not have another 2 riders weighing up whether they're going to come forward.

Whether the people have something to gain or not is, again, ignoring the elephant in the room. Try and put aside what you personally feel about them or what they might stand to gain – which, as far as I can see is in fact the opposite, otherwise the 2 riders already in question would have come forward. Those involved in this actually stand to lose more than they might gain. Just deal with the facts, please.

On that note, this also a fact worth keeping in mind. The same special agent who ran the BALCO investigation is running this one. He put Marion Jones behind bars for lying after finding her guilty of doping, all without a positive test.

Mine isn't a reaction more than a confirmation of what I (and many others) knew for quite a while.

What about the results / PR being stolen from some cyclists that support other charities/causes – Cerebral palsy, Tibet, Indigenous peoples. If you look at the results of the 2005 TdF, and take out the confirmed dopers, you are left with 1. Lance Armstrong, 2. Cadel Evans. Is the original analogy still such a far stretch?

You should all still celebrate my achievements aswell people.
I once did a bit of charity work on a long weekend.

Sorry Wade

“Lance has done more good for cycling and cancer than almost anyone else in the world and I hope nothing comes out of this. Was Lance ever racing dirty? I don’t think it matters.”

I am disgusted by this attitude. Of course it matters.

It matters because in 1999 Armstrong, while leading the Tour, called for the exclusion of the one rider (Bassons) who complained about doping in the peloton – and encouraged the bullying that forced him to withdraw, weeping, after his own team refused to support him.

It matters because in 2004, while leading the Tour, Armstrong led a vindictive campaign against the rider (Simeoni) who was testifying against the worst of the doping doctors (Ferrari) – leading to him being spat on and abused, while Armstrong showed the 'hushed lips' sign to the peloton.

It matters because every day he sits there raking in the millions, every other rider in the pro peloton understands that if you dope, you can get away with it and be successful; and if you don't, you are anonymous.

If you think that perpetuating the environment of doping that has plagued this sport is 'more good for cycling … than almost anyone in the world', then I have to disagree with you. After Festina there was a chance that cycling would clean itself up. The 1999 Tour, and the treatment of Bassons, showed the world that cyclists did not want to embrace a cleaner path. Why on earth should we clean cyclists sit there and smile while the dopers get away with it? You lambast Valverde and defend another rider whose piss has shown traces of EPO in it. Why?

Of course Landis is a compromised source – he wouldn't have any knowledge of doping if he weren't. I can't think of a single whistleblower who isn't angry and vengeful. Take his allegations with a pinch of salt – sure – but please stop saying no good wil come of it.

Of course good can come of it. There are allegations that go to alleged secret payments to the UCI that Armstrong has admitted under oath (saying that he forgets the amount, but thought it was $25,000), but denied recently making at all. McQuaid said the payments were made on another date, and totalled $100,000. Sylvia Schenk, former UCI bigwig, said they totalled $500,000. If these were bribes as Landis alleges, (and it's a big if, notwithstanding that no-one seems to understand why they were made, and made in secret) then the implication is of corruption going to the heart of cycling itself.

That is something that should be looked at – the credibility on the UCI is on the line. That is something that is important enough to look into – whether or not the outcome is uncomfortable to fans of Armstrong, Hincapie, Leipheimer or anyone else named by Landis. If anyone else talks, we might get cycling out of the hands of facilitators like Verbruggen and McQuaid and into the hands of people whose idea of saving cycling is not accepting money given under the table.

Moreover, Wade – Landis also makes allegations against Andy Rihs – who owns Cadel Evans' team. I think that's something of interest to all of us here- no?

bam. strong post bob

Thanks Nick, I'll continue to enjoy having an open mind whilst believing this will not actually help cycling whatever the outcome, meanwhile leaving the armchair experts such as yourself to make all the decisions. Since you've obviously already made up your mind and seem to only be looking for confirmation of what you suspect, oh, sorry, what you “know”, I won't waste my time any further talking about the impact this could have on the sport. Enjoy your trolling,
D

A few days late but here goes – it is a good quote but you are right JC, it doesn't really fit this situation (was made for the gag value). However what we have from Landis is not hearsay and rumour but a piece of first-hand “testimony”.
Landis has not made “accusations” as such, but rather has given a first-hand account of events in which he was a part.
FYI, hearsay is exactly that – someone says they heard someone else say some say something. Not the case here.
And you first look to the statement, evaluate its veracity (or at least attempt to) THEN you might make a call on the “quality” of the witness.
As a now self-confessed liar (and sounding more than a little crazy), Landis must be viewed with a healthy degree of skepticism, however the actual statements themselves are pretty damning for Armstrong and require serious investigation.

+1

You're way off the mark in my humble opinion Bob.

In a court, Landis is busted, cold. He is a cheat, and in complete denial to the public until 25 days before his 2 year ban ended. He has lied and denied, now wants people to believe him.

Landis also started a foundation to pay for his legal bills fighting the charges. Landis also tried to force Greg Lemond to testify on his behalf, outing Lemond's then private information of GLeM being molested as a kid. No limit to the extent Landis will go to.

Landis is a certified turd.

Then there is Landis' same claim about another team mate Michael Barry doping. Barry said, “I am shocked at the allegations from Floyd Landis. They are completely untrue. A few years ago, I cycled the Vuelta a Espana race and trained two days prior to the Vuelta with him — one 6 hour ride and one two hour ride. I did not share or use any banned substances such as EPO when I was riding with him and am dismayed at his allegations. Landis is either lying or has mistaken me with another rider.
I have nothing to hide. I compete as a clean athlete. I am proud to be an advocate for change in this sport and am proud to be an athlete who competes without the use of any banned substance. I have been a member of international cycling teams that have been staunch supporters of anti-doping and have required additional stringent testing of their athletes. If there are any reviews of this situation, I am happy to participate in any and all of them. For reference, a 2007 blog entry regarding a previous doping scandal”.

Lance has not been busted. That's the fact. The rest is just conjecture and conspiracy theories.

Drawing assumptions that Lance is dirty because he acts so snarly are just assumptions too (can't say I wouldn't get really sh*tty like he did with Paul Klimmage too – remember recently when that Klimmage guy fronted up to Lance recently at a presser and got towelled?). Klimmage has staked a career now on outing dopers, he has targeted Lance and can't back down now or he'd look a fool. Of course he's going to keep at him, even if it's only conspiracies.

The other side is that cancer charities (and let's be honest cancer sufferers) have benefitted the world over from Lance. I'm happy for them to feel better in a really sh*tty experience if it's just the doubt in me or you that Lance might be dirty. You and me don't matter when some kid is dying don't you agree?

It's not the same as saying he can do anything because he does this cancer charity stuff as well. No way in the world Cadel and all the rest lose out to him, Lance is simply not taking away sponsorship from others if that's what you mean.

Just like the theory that the moon landing was faked, or the 9/11 plane didn't actually crash into the Pentagon, there are too many people involved to stay quiet (ie. Balco or whatever lab would have given him up). In any case the constant suggestion that Lance is dirty is offensive to so many people, ie. cancer patients or their friends and families wearing a Live Strong bracelet and believing and hoping for good.

What else have you got for them? Until anyone provides something that's anything near Lance's effort, or he's busted I reckon your arguments aren't worth much.

Awesome comment in velomanti – thought people might like a read.

http://www.velominati.com/blog/doping/evanescen…

im sorry you spent so much time writing that..now step away from the kool-aid.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_spo…

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