The Progression Of Racing And The Australian Grading System

The UK systems is very similar to the US one by the sound of it. It works, as you genuinely earn your stripes on an open points system meaning that once you’re at a grade the level of abilities at a level is relatively consistent and genuinely competitive. This systems also caters for year on year by having to gain a minimal level of points to retain your status at a certain level. I think the Australian system would benefit from this

Wade (and everyone else), how do you feel about cyclists being in different grades for different disciplines? For example, some people are quite clearly competent and fit enough to race A-grade in a road race, but their skills, technique and experience might mean that an A-grade criterium would be inappropriate, and potentially, dangerous. If a standardised grading system were to exist, would it be justified to consider road- and crit-racing as two separate disicplines? For me, I’m not sure, but am interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

Not sure whether you are meaning this but on first read the implication seems to be that the lower grades are for incompetents, particularly D grade being the worst type of incompetent..i.e. unconsciously incompetent… i.e. completely clueless without even knowing it. Many people have race smarts and bike handling skills but perhaps not the fitness / power required for higher grades.
Personally, I think that everyone out having a crack at racing deserves praise, not just those that have progressed up the evolutionary scale to A grade.
Part of the beauty of this sport is the uncertainty and the multiple potential outcomes for any move in a race and I’d suggest that no one knows it all and that everyone keeps learning as long as they ride.

I’ll get off my soapbox now..

You do raise some valid points re filed sizes and not progressing through the grades too quickly.

Agree 100%
There is still a lot to learn for most of the C graders. Many of the younger kids on Tuesdays at Sandown lack basic racing skills. As a result half the skin on the right hand side of my body is now on the first corner.

Some of these guys will contest the sprint and will have the fitness/power to get to B grade. However their pack skills and cornering ETC needs a lot of work.

Hold your line grommets

“Instead what we’re seeing is a massive gap in experience and skill amongst the riders in A grade. I’m guessing the lower grades are probably viewing the top racers as “sandbaggers”. Sometimes that’s the case when an A-grader with a couple years off decides to come back racing again, and other times it’s simply someone who is doing the right thing and going through their apprenticeship.” aka Lincoln Brown…??

I definitely don’t mean to use the term “incompetence” in a negative or belittling context. My apology if that’s how it reads. Some people stick to racing D, C and B-grades because that’s where they’re happy and they can’t commit too much time to it and I think that’s great. This is exactly what I’ll be doing when I go to masters racing in a couple years time! In fact, the Maters should be categorised as “Conscious Sly Old Foxes”

As a fairly new racer, the system here in the US seems to work well – basically Categories 1-5 and then within each category elite and age groups. E.g. If you are a newbie racer you can get a licenses and only enter races as a Cat 5 – choosing either to race within yor age group) or in the Elite group – which is basically anyone who is a Cat 5. The promoter of an event gets to decide how the categories are broken out depending on likely demand – e.g. sometimes in the upper age groups Cat 4′s and 5′s are lumped together. Upgrading from one category to another is based on a rigid points systems – e.g. Cat 5 to 4 requires participation in at least 10 mass start events (1 point per), with extra credit if you attend an approved mentored clinic where they teach skills, etc. Cat 4 to 3 is a fairly big step and so on. Ne net is you find you are racing with guys with a similar skill level and only go up the gardes as you race more, learn and gain experience.

I would like to see a more structured approach to changing grades. Up until recently at my local club, if you won two races in C Grade you got promoted to B Grade (and found both the pace and attitude of riders very different). We now have a more sensible approach to graded based on average speed of races and the racing is much closer and more enjoyable. It also means I am learning more about racing tactics and strategy rather than just hanging on in a faster grade.

it’s been a while since i raced, but i’m curious if clubs are more organised these days. back when i started, there was no guidance or induction whatsover. you just got put in D grade and if you did something wrong, some crusty old bloke would yell abuse at you. particularly in crits, only orthapaedic surgeons gain by putting inexperienced racers in a bunch of 50 – putting them in D grade keeps the other grades safe, but isn’t a proper solution.

obviously A-graders and other experienced racers may not care – and that was certainly my experience – but i’ve always felt that unlike other sports, competitive cycling – on the whole – isn’t very welcoming for youngsters. although clubs may be getting better numbers now, it’s still a minority sport in comparison to most others. from my previous experience, i would point the finger of blame at the crusty old blokes who ran the club and had no vision or initiative.

I’m happy with that. Thanks Wade.

I’m happy with that. Thanks Wade.

Wade, You have discussed the need to have a grading system in place. All it takes is for one club to start this and require allriders that are racing in their races to comply. This may initially deter some but if both CCCC and SKCC can put any differences (if there are any) aside and start setting this up, then I am sure many more will follow.

Too many times, I hear that a rider has been forced up a grade as he has had a few results (2nd, 3rd, etc), yet might not have the fitness, nor inclination to race in the higher grade.

Don’t force people to go to the next grade, make them earn it. If they want to go they will. If they don’t, it will make for better racing at the lower grade and help those that are there, to improve their skills ready for the next level.

I like the idea of earning points to move up to the next level. I think initially there would be a settling in period and I think there would need to be some initial grading done. No point putting a clearly A Grade Rider back to D or E Grade and make them earn the points, it would create a backlog, and there would be no A Grade for a number of years.

Grade riders initially, have something in place to make them retain their spot (ie 1 point per race and must accumulate 5 points per season to remain in that grade), and have something that makes people earn their place in a higher grade (ie 10 points to move up a grade with 1 point per race). I also like the idea of separate grading for each style of racing, Crits and Road races are similar but different.

Might bring this up with my club in Perth and see what they think.

Wade, You have discussed the need to have a grading system in place. All it takes is for one club to start this and require allriders that are racing in their races to comply. This may initially deter some but if both CCCC and SKCC can put any differences (if there are any) aside and start setting this up, then I am sure many more will follow.

Too many times, I hear that a rider has been forced up a grade as he has had a few results (2nd, 3rd, etc), yet might not have the fitness, nor inclination to race in the higher grade.

Don’t force people to go to the next grade, make them earn it. If they want to go they will. If they don’t, it will make for better racing at the lower grade and help those that are there, to improve their skills ready for the next level.

I like the idea of earning points to move up to the next level. I think initially there would be a settling in period and I think there would need to be some initial grading done. No point putting a clearly A Grade Rider back to D or E Grade and make them earn the points, it would create a backlog, and there would be no A Grade for a number of years.

Grade riders initially, have something in place to make them retain their spot (ie 1 point per race and must accumulate 5 points per season to remain in that grade), and have something that makes people earn their place in a higher grade (ie 10 points to move up a grade with 1 point per race). I also like the idea of separate grading for each style of racing, Crits and Road races are similar but different.

Might bring this up with my club in Perth and see what they think.

The Crit series that my club are running this summer has 4 grades, D grade being the starting grade and as Wade has said unconscious Incompetent. They are all good people in D Grade and this is not a derogatory term, they just do not have any experience with racing. That’s what D Grade is for. We have an experienced rider or two ride with them, usually an A Grader from the Club, who instructs them on line, roll throughs, positioning, cornering, etc. The “Race” might be for 20 mins, with the first 15 mins a learning time, then the A grader pulls off and lets the group put into practice what he/she has just taught them. Works well for juniors and seniors with no experience, and encourages people to have a go knowing that there will be someone there to help them learn, and that the other riders are in the same boat as them.

In the ACTVETs (we are AVCC affiliated not CA) we run two grades so that we can incorporate just this situation.

One suggestion I have is to have a statewide results database to which all the clubs submit (i) their entry lists and (ii) their results each week. I agree that the way to make this work is to have some consistency across the races at different grades. The catch is then that at all race entry tables everybody needs access to the database to check grades etc. when signing on. This takes racing from the “casual” grass roots level up a notch. It might make things too complicated for the average club. Still, the large crit. turnouts might warrant something like this and other races could have a pre-entry system to give them advanced warning of who will attend and allow time for sensible grading. Our club is doing this for its weekly winter TTs.

Somebody above raises an interesting point though about (hilly) road races vs. crits, but they forgot track racing. That really complicates things. E.g. I am an old guy who has raced quite a lot but I am not an A-grade rider across the board! I race different grades in hilly road races, track races and crits. Mostly this depends on what type of racing I have been peaking for rather than anything else. I.e. if I am aiming for a good track season I won’t be doing a lot of long endurance hill rides. How on earth I wonder would a central database keep track of my changing annual goals!!!? I would hate to be focusing on (say) the Tour of Bright, then if I show up to a track meet for a bit of fun with no sprint legs and I get placed in a grade that is too high for me it would be pretty tough :-(

Maybe if their was more races with hills then the C graders would stop promoting themselves to A grade.
It only takes a few repeats of a 5min climb and the race will grade itself.

Unfortunately at the local crits, it’s not hard to sit on the back of A grade even if they are doing 46kph.

A grading system would be a really good idea, however it’s difficult as the ‘sprinter’ types will be able to place alot, but if they get bumped to the next level then they may not be able to hang on. This is always a tricky one.

most racers seem to agree with the broad proposal every time this comes up – I think its well overdue in Australia (my background is UK where the system works very well)

The question is how to make it happen?

should it be a CA thing, or should each state have their own separate grading system? Many riders race interstate, I would love to see an Australia wide grading system that covered club / state open / national level events and have all Aus riders with a licence ranked and graded and posted online.

Wade, how about leveraging your reach with the racing community to start a major petition from grass roots to submit to CA?

Does anyone know CA’s current position on this – it must have been discussed at AGM’s etc?

I suggest this idea needs to come from the individual clubs raising it (more or less unanimously) at state level committee meetings. This requires agreement and cooperation between the clubs… which is harder to achieve than you might expect ;-) I for one think it would be a great idea if clubs cooperated, even to the point of coordinating their racing programmes!

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I agree that a grading system is well overdue, however the points-promotion system certainly needs some thought before it is put into practice. i.e. a rider who turns up and finishes last in ten consecutive crits is clearly not ready to be racing in a higher grade.

A system of combined accumulative and results points accrual would seem the most appropriate measure. This would also address the concerns of Al and Climber. My two cents

Agreed, inter club co-operation would be a great start, however I fear a greater level of top down co-ordination would be required. I think it should be delivered by CA, but theres nothing stopping clubs working together to push for the change.

Agreed, inter club co-operation would be a great start, however I fear a greater level of top down co-ordination would be required. I think it should be delivered by CA, but theres nothing stopping clubs working together to push for the change.

No reason CA shouldn’t be able to do it. If you play golf regularly (………I know!), you can get a plastic ‘golf-link’ card with a unique number, hand your score card in anywhere in Australia and your handicap is adjusted accordingly. Logistically not that difficult

At the philip island road races.. After 6 months of riding a bike, with 3-4 D grade races under my belt in which i had not placed.

Me: “Can i please sign up to D grade”
The desk: “No you can’t, you look too good. You are starting in C grade.”
Me: “No really, I’m not ready for C grade, I won’t even be placing in D grade yet”
The desk: “Don’t want to hear it, C grade for you”

The result: Me being totally out of my depth in C grade once the summer crits came around (poor cornering & positioning skills) and finding it hard to improve on them when I was gasping for air due to increased pace.. It’s only just coming together for me now..

very anonymous…. but i couldn’t agree more, that Lincoln Brown sat on my wheel for the last part of B grade on the weekend, and stole my 2nd place!

Guest post by Donald Rumsfeld? Unknown unknowns, known unknowns, known knowns… Now I have a headache.

We have been discussing this topic in Qld on Roadgrime for a while. I believe most riders who race want to see this implemented and I think it should come from the top ie. CA and be Australia wide. The UK and the USA systems seem to work and maybe a system that takes the best of both could be implemented. It is now overdue.

Haha … customer service at it’s best. I have stood in the queue several times at that club and heard riders get subjected to the same treatment. One poor bastard who dared to day he wasn’t anywhere near C grade capability got told, and I quote “I can stick you in A or B grade if I want … I can put you wherever I want”. Basically it boils down to needing a regional grading system (i.e. in Melbourne metro for instance) that means clubs respect each others grading.

So if you race in a grade at several clubs in Melbourne the other ones should respect that, what that means is agreeing a system between the clubs. At the moment that seems a long way off.

Just as an aside as well, if during your warmup in a B grade race you’re busy telling your mate you lasted 20 minutes last week and aiming to complete half the race this time then you need to drop back to C. You’re just getting in the way of those racing for a result.

I have a simple solution to reducing the field in A grade men on Sunday mornings down at SKCC, make them race at 8am every third week – it would also help to increase the fields of the lowest grades. I have always thought it odd that the race schedule is structured to have those just starting out in cycle racing having to make the biggest commitment to get there on time.

We don’t have to look overseas for what you are proposing, Canberra Cycling Club already has a great system for grading their crits. Canberra CC also rotates the start times for its races, which helps if you don’t like getting up early or can’t get away from work at 5pm and want to race in the lower grades.

Finally, 300 people racing anywhere in Melbourne on any given Sunday is a great thing and nothing should change that would reduce the number of people racing. If we any club was to introduce stricter grading, and this led to an increase in the standard of C and D grade it would probably need to be accompanied by the introduction of another grade so that those people already racing in those grades aren’t discouraged from turning up because it now becomes too hard – not all of us have the time and inclination to train, but should still be encouraged to participate.

I was ill for 6 months and basically the NC wanted to stick me in B after 4 months off. I raced D and blew up. I 100% agree with you.

The solution to me is simple.

CA implements a national grading and handicapping framework. All clubs and state orgs must comply. The framework is developed in consultation with all interested parties and voted by members.

Each club MUST comply with basic race day logistics including scanning memberships (like CCCC does) and reporting results within 48 hours. All results for all riders must be reported (nationwide electronic race system) as well as prevailing weather, winds, race speed and any other metrics deemed of import.

From here, riders would accumulate points for notable race results and upon reaching certain thresholds, be promoted.

Likewise, a string of poor performances (out of form, sickness, long absence) would trigger a relegation.

The analogy is the golf handicapping system.

CA subs are now circa $300 a year and you cannot tell me a system such as the one I roughly outline could not be implemented within the confines of standard opex, or even a once off levy or annual levy defraying the costs over say 5-10 years so as to not lump current members with the cost with future members paying nothing (though it could be argued the net benefit over time to everyone would abrogate any argument of unfairness from current members).

The way I see it, the administration is missing some innovative, determined Web2.0 smart business thinking.

Although the racing regime is for fun, at the end of the day it ought to be run like a business. A private sector mentality would drive some innovation into the system.

Hope none of this causes offence (the current system is a bugbear of mine).

With all the money we pay, we deserve better to:
- improve quality of racing
- increase safety
- improve quality of riders overall

I don’t think this is the type of system (if you want it done right, that is) that can be done in an ad-hoc manner. It needs to be done in a strategic, unified, cohesive manner with agreement from everyone.

I can see the case in the instance that you describe where people could be in B grade at Club X (not that club X) and turn up and be put in A or C at another race.

Hence my comments about uniformity.

Needs to come from CA.

The problem with mandating results submission is ensuring that the process is stupid proof and very simple.

We have some very good people volunteering their time to help us race, and I am not sure we want to be making their life harder with deadlines without the proper tools and framework in place; hence my comments below about a nationwide electronic system tied into a national database (in and of itself a great idea).

Any increase (from 0 to be honest) in transparency is to be relentlessly supported.

It would dramatically improve the racing culture and remove any complaints about sandbagging which in many cases have merit.

The points about taking into account hilly races etc is a good one. But, at the end of the day, no sprinters are going to be doing races in AU that take them up the Galibier. And can always not race those races. Personally, I am not suited to crits, so don’t race them much (beyond using them for training or to help friends get wins).

A reliable system can be introduced without complicating its initial scope (by introducing the concept of annual goals as you describe).

The system needs to be purely based on hard data only. No subjective aspirations or goals.

The initial burn in period where you race a variety of races over say 12 months and accumulate results will provide for a fairly useful set of data that will allow the administrators of the system to put you in the right grade.

Previous experience, results and peer review can be used to further refine this.

I disagree. I think it needs to come from CA.

Whilst I am all for distributed/non centralised behaviour and organisation, the initial implementation needs to come from a single point of authority.

If it’s not managed properly, too many people turn up (to SKCC Port Mel circuit), rider experience is all over the shop (per grade), people get taken out, people stop turning up….

God I love racing with the Vets
As with JCJordan above we step out of the bull shit and testosterone
The environment is based on people who don’t have some miss guided belief in their own ability and a culture of nurture (not accurate for A grade, though there is a conscious “Team” environment for them)
If you can’t roll a turn you will learn a lot faster because when you enter a handicap there will be a bloke who has been doing it for 40 years teaching you and there isn’t much sitting on because there will be less than 10 on a mark and you will be forced to learn. As a direct result we have the Unconsciously Competent in D grade, not because of any reason except they may be older, you learn really quick from those guys, in fact there are a lot of new people who are not yet fit (remembering the average member is probably 40-50 with a young family and slap bang in career consolidation, so time limited) who race way better than the pillocks who sit on for laps in C at Sandown then think they are a sprinter (but have no actual skill at timing or positioning) and then brag that they podiumed and averaged 42…
And don’t think our Grades are any different to the CA a lot of us cross over, but the funny thing is people tend to do that less and less over time because they get tired of the crap. Look what happened to Southern Vets when they went under CA… while Northern and Eastern are both growing with about 500 members between them (yes still smaller than StK)

God I love racing with the Vets
As with JCJordan above we step out of the bull shit and testosterone
The environment is based on people who don’t have some miss guided belief in their own ability and a culture of nurture (not accurate for A grade, though there is a conscious “Team” environment for them)
If you can’t roll a turn you will learn a lot faster because when you enter a handicap there will be a bloke who has been doing it for 40 years teaching you and there isn’t much sitting on because there will be less than 10 on a mark and you will be forced to learn. As a direct result we have the Unconsciously Competent in D grade, not because of any reason except they may be older, you learn really quick from those guys, in fact there are a lot of new people who are not yet fit (remembering the average member is probably 40-50 with a young family and slap bang in career consolidation, so time limited) who race way better than the pillocks who sit on for laps in C at Sandown then think they are a sprinter (but have no actual skill at timing or positioning) and then brag that they podiumed and averaged 42…
And don’t think our Grades are any different to the CA a lot of us cross over, but the funny thing is people tend to do that less and less over time because they get tired of the crap. Look what happened to Southern Vets when they went under CA… while Northern and Eastern are both growing with about 500 members between them (yes still smaller than StK)

for my experience i won my first ever D grade race with cccc in november 09 and went straight to c. Totaly wasn’t ready, i had the watts but couldnt corner to save my life, ended up sitting at the back then coming to the front if anything happened which didnt help anything to be honest. There may be marshals in c grade but honestly they dont say much appart from the keeping everyone to the left when A grade came through, but the worst was about this time last year after getting only 3 places i was told the next place i got i would have to move to B grade and untill last w/e i didnt have it in me to place because i hardly felt comfortable cornering in c grade let alone B. I think more road rather than track training for younger riders would be very beneficial, and marshalls speaking up when they see something, not just A grade in the rear view but giving tips on cornering and tactics to other riders

for my experience i won my first ever D grade race with cccc in november 09 and went straight to c. Totaly wasn’t ready, i had the watts but couldnt corner to save my life, ended up sitting at the back then coming to the front if anything happened which didnt help anything to be honest. There may be marshals in c grade but honestly they dont say much appart from the keeping everyone to the left when A grade came through, but the worst was about this time last year after getting only 3 places i was told the next place i got i would have to move to B grade and untill last w/e i didnt have it in me to place because i hardly felt comfortable cornering in c grade let alone B. I think more road rather than track training for younger riders would be very beneficial, and marshalls speaking up when they see something, not just A grade in the rear view but giving tips on cornering and tactics to other riders

Thanks Wade, I’ve been hoping a post like this would come up. I confess to being a closet ‘googler’ of my opponents, however I have no expectation that the clubs would be able to research (or take action against!) riders sandbagging or misgrading themselves. It’s not as though there is a clear set of rules indicating when and how riders should select the correct grade, so handicappers trying to enforce their interpretation often results in an argument.

As happened to Nickalas, an unwanted (undeserved) promotion was given, I’ve even been on the receiving end of an unexpected demotion, too! Take the TTT at SKCC, a quick googling reveals some snazzy palmares for those rating themselves as B-graders. However, maybe if you combine some A-grade crit winning or Triathlon winning ability with some lower level riders, you average out to a B-grade team, who knows? Other riders return after a short spell off the race track and return a grade lower to ‘re-build race fitness’ (by lapping the field). My point is not to gripe at these perceived mis-gradings, my point is to highlight that there isn’t a benchmark for these riders to have known otherwise.

These are all symptoms of a somewhat anarchic system in which riders (and clubs) are interpreting the rules as best they can. This is why we have so many different variations of ‘Fair racing’, ‘A-Grade’ and other arbitrary classifications of ability and behaviour. Until there is a clear set of rules, it’s unreasonable to expect all racers to know what to do.

Your analogy with golf doesn’t work really, they rank the course to determine a bench mark, the bloke on 10 at Royal Melbourne would be a 0 man at an average public course if that wasn’ t the case.
I guess you could rank riders against who they beat on the day, but the database would be mamoth, trying to cross referance every rider with each other and then add some form of weighting based on age of result

It would be more important to separate road and track, in my opinion.

Hilarious! I used to study my opponent’s race results with a fine tooth comb on the computer (before the days of Google though!).

Things have only changed slightly in that time however. It still takes a few days for results to be posted in many cases.

exactly my thought A_C; I figured he got up to known incompetence before opting to spend more time with his family.

Sounds like a great club – and a great place to maybe have a crack at something I’ve been afraid of trying. Care to name your club for a fellow Perthie?

Having done some reading on it, I think the US system is a good one – points are awarded based upon the depth of the field and your placing (so racing against 15 guys and getting 1st may net you the same points as getting 5th out of 70 starters).

One other big benefit that I see from the system is the tangible “levelling” – it would provide additional motivation and clear goals. Reading US based forums (such as bikeforums.net) people talk about their requirements to move up to the next grade. Everyone wants to get out of the 5′s and the 4′s, but people often find a point of contentedness in the 3′s or 2′s – they earned their spot in those categories.

Having an online view to your racing career and how many more races/results you need to get you over the line would be a huge advantage – and be an impetus for more people to enjoy their racing. You would no longer be waiting for the handicapper to tell you to go up a grade – it would be staring you in the face!

I’m all for it, but agree it HAS to come from the central body – CSV or CA.

What “happened” to Southern Vets? Racing there is getting better and better, is it not?

If he lost the beard he would have won!

Wade I think some good points are raised here. Perhaps, since you are now recognised as a journalist by a lot of people, you could contact CSV and maybe even club contacts to get some comment on what the decision makers actually feel should happen? The thing about open C grade having club A graders in it, I don’t think is so bad. When you are drawing on a talent pool that is much bigger (eg state/nationwide) it is natural that some riders go backwards from their normal grading. Open racing is a step up from club racing, and I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. The other thing is, regional variation in talent can create issues. I spent some time in the states and met Cat 1′s from the midwest who were worse than Cat 3′s from California. If there is a lot of depth in one particular area, it can create difficulty in feeding talent through to the elite level. Eg, if you need a certain number of A grade places before racing Elite at Bright, that is going to harm the chances of people racing in Melbourne as against a small country town.

To this day I have no idea why CSV don’t get off their backside and go with the momentum of cycling created by CCCC and SKCC and organise a summer crit series run in conjunction with the clubs. The riders, revenue and sponsorship of such a series would be very positive for all concerned. (I’m happy to write a post on how this could work and if anyone is interested I’m happy to help fund a company to do these events) Come on CSV rise to the challenge and organise something that rewards the clubs and riders. Crits are cheaper to hold, easy to manage and have greater crowds. If CCCC and SKCC can draw 600 riders on a Sunday morning in one city, aren’t you concerned that some of your races get less then 100?????

Clubs are run by volunteers whilst CSV are paid ‘professionals’ yet somehow the clubs smash CSV in the organisation stakes.

As for grading – see my comments below on that as well!!!

Cycling is an incredibly hard sport, it is very hard to win multiple races in a season. The top sprinters in the world probably win less then 15% of their races in any give season.

If you are in a grade and place 4 times then you should probably be moved up. If after a few weeks you are consistently getting dropped in the higher grade then yes OK you can probably go down. However I find it hard to believe you can consistently be in the top of one grade and completely off the pace in the next level.

We are all adults. In the absence of results we can all decide what grade to ride at club level. Some will cheat themselves and ride in lower grades and some will have inflated egos and ride in higher grades. Personally I don’t care. Ride where you want. If you dominate a lower grade then you’ll be put up – deal with it. You should be proud that you’ve progressed with your cycling. Congratulations.

Personally I’d love to see a few club crits with hills as this does sort out the races. It annoys me that some in A grade have never ridden near the front, but that’s there choice and if it gives them pleasure to ride A grade then good luck to them. We all enjoy different things from cycling so let people ride where and how they want.

Hills would be nice but we live in cities and have limited places to race.

A grading system is a great idea. BUT THE CLUBS ARE RUN BY VOLUNTEERS please don’t place more crap on their laps.

Grading for opens is a must (The Tour of Bright grading is a disgrace as are most handicaps in Victoria) but this is the responsibility of CA or CSV.

Before anyone thinks I have no idea – Please remember that I have won in all Grades (D – A) and at Open level.

I’m sure plenty here have done the tour of bright. The results there are real-time, i remember watching the time-trials results come in and order of GC shifting around. It was great. Not sure if that technology can be applied to crits, but if it can getting the data wouldn’t be an issue. It’s all online and can be accessed by anyone along with their CA membership no.

wouldn’t take much to use it constructively.

I fall into a fifth category of competence known as Sub-consciously incompetent. My incompetence runs so deep into the sub-conscience mind that no amount of practise, experience or instruction in any particular skill can affect it.

Good point Tim.I used to race Tuesday at Sandown but the grades are too big and experience varies,got taken out by a junior.Result broken clavicle and dislocated shoulder.Racing is great but the time off work is not good.I dont race with that club again.

Most definitely would like to see the Cat grades implemented in Australia, ive noticed riders experience/fitness is all over the place in D-C grade getting A-B graders thinking they are having a off week coming back a grade for what ever reason and then dominating.
Just waiting for the day when its moderated more closely :)

South Perth Rouleurs

http://www.southperthrouleurs.com.au/

When I say that I might bring this up with the Club, I meant that the club can then pursue it up the chain to Cycling WA, who can then in turn bring it up with Cycling Aust. If every club does this with each of their state organisations, then surely CA will have to look at resolving the issues of their members.

I take your point that having CCCC and SKCC start this then that Ad Hoc approach is probably not the best way to go. Maybe have them approach Cycling Vic to get them to do something with CA.

However you hand your scorecard in to a shop with internet links and machines set up for this purpose. A little harder, but not impossible, to do when you are racing in a back street crit somewhere with no power and no machines and organised by the local club. Now if there was an iPhone and Android app to check gradings of members and submit race results….

all are valid points….

Not sure if you’ve quite dug yourself out of the trenches yet Wade. I deliberately got a vets licence cos the racing is as good as the premier open crit series here in Adelaide. Talking to the capo of the currently 1st ranked vets team over a 1 hour smash fest on the MTB, he is considering fully sponsoring (through his business) the vets crit series next year taking it to a very high level of racing. I havent succumb to masters /vets racing, I want in.

CT, is it possible to run a survey to see if club racers do or do-not support enforced grading?

The lower grades have the biggest commitment to getting there on time? A grade starts on time just like D grade does.

A grade starting later is actually an inconvenience….because we end up getting home mid-afternoon when we train after we race. It would be far better to get it over and done with earlier!

Looking at it from another angle – A graders are in A grade for a reason – most commonly getting up at an ungodly hour – for years on end – to train before work. If they get to sleep in a bit on Sunday, maybe that is their reward for Monday-Saturday.

The argument I would make is for womens A grade to be run later at SKCC. Often there are hardly any spectators around that early – they deserve to be in the spotlight too!

Why do CSV need to run a crit series that competes with two successful crit series with good prize money and attendance?

Wade, I am by no means a techspurt on this matter, but would have thought timing chips/ transponders would solve most of the problem for fast, efficient results to be uploaded.
Some clubs make transponder avail for purchase for around $100 or hire per race and hey presto half of the time at the rego desk is gone and results can be up immediately, with lap splits etc etc posted online afterward.
If the technology is adequate, then perhaps road racing and crits could follow in the foot steps of their knuckle dragging mountainbike friends ;-)

Having raced in a few different states, the grading can be dramatically variable. I am not sure of the best method for going forward but SA have a “Teams Series” which (generally speaking) has 10 very strong teams of 5 riders, this effectively becomes the real “A” grade. It prompts people to want to make those teams, of for the previous “B” graders happy that they are racing “A” grade (but not really). Riders from teams not selected each week can still race below keeping the standard high. It is still too easy to get elevated to a higher grade.

I feel that we are all missing one significant reason for riding in a higher grade. SAFETY!!!! Lower grades may help you get a win but you are more likely to come up against some poorly skilled riders. I wasnt good enough (read strong enough) to win at a higher grade but found it safer and more challenging. People are not just motivated by “ego”, but, I am someone who continually tries to break away and beat a field of 40 with 1-2 others, never really works.

This is a huge problem (if you view it as such) with the US/UK style system. You get even less leniency for illness/training status. You race the grade it says on your license, period. If you want to downgrade, you have to apply in writing, then if you want to go back up, you have to earn another upgrade, which can take a year or more. I think this is appropriate. If you have been sick, you can get your condition up for a little while before you race rather than finishing off your conditioning by winning a grade down. If you have been really sick, you can apply to downgrade. It takes out the uncertainty and it forces the riders to take the grading seriously. Of course, it also means I don’t have a heap of sympathy for your complaints.

I raced A @ STK on Sunday and wondered why it was so crazy. If it were not for the good behavior, sensible riding and great skills of riders the accident level would have been significantly higher. I couldn’t believe it when I read the race report and theyt were crowing about how many riders they had squeezed onto that circuit. I knew it was bg, but not that big. 100 riders is too many on that circuit – add a big C grade and it is just plain dangerous. I’d be surprised if permits would allow such numbers and if I was the Comm i’m pretty sure I’d feel uncomfortable about putting my name to the race. I’ll be racing elsewhere for a while.

Admitedly. I am getting older and more conservative about my risk taking. It was a buzz, I enjoyed it but thinking about it afterward and seeing the numbers I had a bit of a wake up call. St Kilda should too. My feeling is that A grade should really have the circuit to themselves if numbers are going to be over 70 on a regular basis.

Solutions – Agree with a few above and I have a few ideas. Rant over, maybe later -)

Functional Threshold Power could be used to determine (as a baseline) what grade athletes could / should ride. Grade difficulty can be mapped back to it as can athlete performance. Its quanitative, universal and would end all arguments for once and all. Like a passport, get your FTP number and qualify. For an hour crit if you can average 310 watts – you qualify to be in that grade for example and so on. Of course all the requisite skills need to be associated with power, and that can be the progression through the grades – a different perspective and only those who understand the application of power will / or wont agree.

the AKA (Australian Karting Association) brought in mandatory transponders that everyone had to buy just as i was leaving the sport ~4yrs ago. For me i think it’s a great idea, but something that would need to be discussed seriously first with the +’s and -’s thought about. May not be so practical for your mid winter club race with 60 people in some random town in the middle of nowhere. But then again it might help?

If a data-base of results is ever to be used then this would probably be the best way to do it

Just a few points.
-Races (in Victoria at least) are all ready report. Commissaire must submit to CSV start list and results, along with fines/warnings and a accident report if there have been any crashes.
-The Canberra system that reader mention is base on the NSW system. Outline here.
http://www.nsw.cycling.org.au/default.asp?Page=31454&MenuID=Clubs-BUGS/20232/0/
Though excel file hasn’t been updated since June 09.
- Any grading system would have to flavour road races more and crits like US system. Otherwise imbalance could form between big Melbourne club and smaller clubs.
- Grading system for track could be tricky give the wide varying race types and small numbers. Best leave as is for now.
- Big events like the tour of Bright would benefit from a grading system by giving entries to those who have racing consistently in months leading up to the event. Also it allow excluding of newbies/first timers for safety.

Driving this from a user based perspective where enough people agitate for change is the best way to attack these.

I would contend that a user poll (using any number of SAAS polling sites) that we get people to sign and then take to state orgs and CA is a great way to drive this.

Trying to get the ball rolling from the very top would rely on the right person in CA or a state org reading this. The chances of that are remote, I feel.

I think trying to get disparate state orgs to drive it is probably not the best way.

I think that, as I said, a user driven effort is the way to go. Facebook page, poll, Twitter, simple WordPress page if needed. Easy.

I am more than happy to help.

Lets say just Eastern is happy with their windfall

Is the club better for it?

Neither of the issues you raise are deal breakers and not impossible, as you rightly point out. And hence my earlier comment for the system to be absolutely dead simple.

Cheap netbook.
Magnetic strip reader (card).
Transponder that every person with a CA license (who opts to receive one and pay more for)
Finish line electronics
Finish times sent to pro form file on netbook
Send to database (upload csv)

An as-described provision netbook can log on via a tethered 3G phone to get any data required.
Whilst I am loathe to go to this level of detail, what I am attempting to demonstrate is how easy the technology solutions can be. Technology is not the difficulty here, it is impetus for change.

And that must come from members.

Hence my comments on transparency.The more transparency and lack of subjectivity you introduce (as evidenced by the comments above about an official being able to put someone wherever they like) the more bulletproof and understandable by all.

As for your lack of sympathy, that’s neither here nor there. I did apply and forced the point till I was put where I should be, and then worked back up to where they said I should be as you describe. In many cases, the only way to get race conditioning is to race. So I find your comments lacking in pragmatism, to be honest. So, basically, I did exactly what you describe.

In motor racing we have had Dorian timers for 15 years, but the results can still take 2 hours to come through, a push of a button and it could happen every 30 seconds, but some people don’t push the button

(Dorians are also used in horse racing and are accurate to 0.0001 at 300kph, yet are 15 YO tech…

So what you’re saying is the entire racing regime should be run with the main focus being on benefitting A grade?

Your handicap is based on the ACR for the day. If the normal rating is 72, and on a day blows out to 74 and you shoot (net) 68, then you move even more relative to the field, not the rating for the course.

You could extend this analogy to the bunch finishing time, average bunch time, median time, average time of the median + 1 standard deviation, whatever statistical measure is deemed appropriate.

If you go up the road and win in a 3 man break by 5 mins your win is weighted a bit higher. If you did it on your Han Solo you get an even higher rating to reflect the implied effort. If you come first in a 20 man sprint, you get a standard score.

If you make the race data transponder based and the the data rule based, this is not a big deal. I can imagine much much bigger databases!

Anyway, we are nitpicking.

The larger point is this system needs to happen. The exact implementation would need to be subject to extensive consultation to ensure it covers 80% of cases.

I am weaker than you but smarter, I will win, always

Just playing devils advocate :-)

There was a particular team in the B grade TTT who ought not have been there and have admitted as much. There was a bit of good natured ribbing about this on the North Rd this morning. I believe it was an honest mistake from what I am told. Ask Tony Abbott. He’ll tell you it happens.

Exactly. The TOB race data ought to be used as a template.

Am I right in saying Racing SA makes a transponder available to riders for an entire season?

Why not extend this and make it the entirety of your racing career (break/fix is easily covered). That way any and every race you’d be covered.

Exactly. The TOB race data ought to be used as a template.

Am I right in saying Racing SA makes a transponder available to riders for an entire season?

Why not extend this and make it the entirety of your racing career (break/fix is easily covered). That way any and every race you’d be covered.

Exactly.

See my comments above. Option for those to have one (tied to CA number) for entirety of your race career. E.g. multi year.

Benefits are manifold.

Do away with the bulk of volunteer time at rego, result stuff ups, presenting results (with the exception of adding race commentary).

The cost benefits stack up clearly.

Impetus is missing!

Exactly.

See my comments above. Option for those to have one (tied to CA number) for entirety of your race career. E.g. multi year.

Benefits are manifold.

Do away with the bulk of volunteer time at rego, result stuff ups, presenting results (with the exception of adding race commentary).

The cost benefits stack up clearly.

Impetus is missing!

Every club has to have a netbook (group volume discount through CA) plus requisite card scanners and transponder receivers at finish.

Defray costs across all races for that club for 1-2 years.

Every club has to have a netbook (group volume discount through CA) plus requisite card scanners and transponder receivers at finish.

Defray costs across all races for that club for 1-2 years.

I think a transparent system would do away with many sandbagger calls and raised eyebrows except in exceptional circumstances.

Dropping down 2 grades is a big call!

I think a transparent system would do away with many sandbagger calls and raised eyebrows except in exceptional circumstances.

Dropping down 2 grades is a big call!

CT Survey Monkey.
Then a poll. Sorry man, you’re an opinion leader now ;p

CT Survey Monkey.
Then a poll. Sorry man, you’re an opinion leader now ;p

Were CA or CSV available for comment on this one?

As this is certainly not an issue that looks like resolving itself any time soon.

After some time off the bike I started racing again in B grade during the winter road season, I won one week and was able to race B grade again until I won a second time. After a second win I was in A grade and noticed a bunch of people who in B grade were dropped in a cross wind half way through the race were now up in A grade. Seems people attach a stigma to being in B, if you are getting dropped in B there is no point going up to A, you are just going to get shelled sooner.

After some time off the bike I started racing again in B grade during the winter road season, I won one week and was able to race B grade again until I won a second time. After a second win I was in A grade and noticed a bunch of people who in B grade were dropped in a cross wind half way through the race were now up in A grade. Seems people attach a stigma to being in B, if you are getting dropped in B there is no point going up to A, you are just going to get shelled sooner.

Barrier to entry for novices.

Need to book somewhere, do the FTP test…cost?

I understand power but I’m coming from a UX perspective.

How do you normalise the power for events? For instance (and I am not a power junkie, I train on HR because I don’t have a power meter yet, so excuse my ignorance), in a crit, wouldn’t nominal power be higher than say a hilly jaunt through the delightful Macedon Ranges?

Me, I get slammed in crits. I am little. The big boys of the crits in the hills, though….so, how do you take this into account? (Genuinely curious)

Barrier to entry for novices.

Need to book somewhere, do the FTP test…cost?

I understand power but I’m coming from a UX perspective.

How do you normalise the power for events? For instance (and I am not a power junkie, I train on HR because I don’t have a power meter yet, so excuse my ignorance), in a crit, wouldn’t nominal power be higher than say a hilly jaunt through the delightful Macedon Ranges?

Me, I get slammed in crits. I am little. The big boys of the crits in the hills, though….so, how do you take this into account? (Genuinely curious)

They would coordinate a series with the clubs running a few races each. It brings the clubs closer together and allows us to compare apples with apples across clubs over the course of the summer

They would coordinate a series with the clubs running a few races each. It brings the clubs closer together and allows us to compare apples with apples across clubs over the course of the summer

Yep

I think you’re missing one of the salient points though mrfixie. It’s about safety. With a job, mortgage & other responsibilities, I really don’t care if someone ‘thinks’ they’re good enough to race in the higher grades. Trust me, I’ve lost enough skin, suffered enough pain, and after a whole week in hospital late last year (due to someone’s unconscious incompetence) something has to change.
As we all know & accept before riding or racing, cycling is risky and regarded as an inherently dangerous sport. I base my acceptance of that risk (as is best practice in risk management terms) on an assumption that others in my grade can handle themselves on the bike, often in very close proximity and at speed. If that is not true, then we all need every rider who is participating on the day to bring their most recent performances, placings, participations etc to every event – and for those to be made freely available for perusal – so that I, and everyone else, can consider accepting (or not) the risks of participating in that race.
Alternatively, let CA perform a more guiding, governing role, put in place a ‘points progression system’ (similar to the UK & US) to help us make more informed decisions & take some of the guess work and danger out of this awesome sport.
My thoughts….

Don’t worry Bmania…second is the first looser anyway!

Pat Lane wins A grade at Glenvale, don’t even think about using size as an excuse!

Yep

Given the computerisation of results, and the ability to store swathes of data online, it shouldn’t be hard to store to calculate points on a full season basis once you qualify for a Grade you retain that grade provided you enter and compete in “x” races of that Grade in that and all subsequent seasons.

If you have not competed in a race of that Grade for a season you lose a Grade. When you start racing again you have the right, but not the obligation, to rejoin at your old Grade less one or a lower grade if you chose. Also maybe a diminished number of points are required to regain a grade you have historically qualified for: so you can work your way swiftly through the ranks and back to fitness. The rolling/retention nature allows for injury and time off with some reference to your old grade but no the obligation to go back at full noise.

CA has to be involved, they should link points to licences and keep the central database so you can transfer your grades across Australia. The different States would have different levels but that minor vagary is not material. The key is to have a low cost broadly effective grading that does not inhibit the growth of the sport or restrict new participants joining racing.

Unconsciously incompetent. Consciously unfit.

The North American system definitely has its benefits. It is designed in such a way that most people won’t have the talent or discipline to race in the Cat 1/2 field (corresponding to A, I suppose) and this keeps the races safer and more interesting. When you say that someone moves up to the A field in a few weeks it raises my eyebrow. The only people who do that in the U.S. are people who have demonstrated elite performance in a related sport and adapt quickly to the physical demands, but even then they are preferred to spend at least 10 races in the 3/4 zone to prove they won’t take out the whole pack with questionable handling skills.

The last thing CSV want to do is compete with the clubs by running a crit series. The reason why they don’t is to protect the track season. What they need to do is work out a way to make track racing more appealing. It’s the same with the road calendar. They need to make the calendar more attractive for teams racing and for avaerage Joe, after all Joe Blow doesn’t like driving to an out of the way place to do a 130km road race just to get smashed by Drapac and VIS guys in the first 50km.
CSV should focus on making the road season more attractive for the club level rider as well as the track season. There needs to be a system that suits everyone but adding a crit season on top of a track season is out of the question.
And yes, a points grading system is long overdue.

I am a little mystified by your Australian grading system. The US system rarely engenders complaints from participants at least where upgrades are concerned. We do have some questionable policies though, like allowing absolute beginners (Category 5 men) to receive half of their upgrade qualification by attending a single clinic. That clinic is supposedly worth the experience one receives in 5 mass start events. Personally, I think that’s bull. That nonsense notwithstanding, we have a pretty good thing going for us that does not appear to be a total goat-rodeo to manage nationally and/or locally.

Typically, there is a notable jump in awareness (but not necessarily fitness) between 5 and 4, and again between 4 and 3. Category 3 races are markedly longer and more akin to their Cat 1/2 counterparts. Some Cat 3 racers may be physically capable of racing in the 1/2s but haven’t put together upgrade-worthy results or actually choose to remain in the 3s for the sake of enjoyment. Locally, we have a guy who raced for BMC and won the Elite National TT one year. He eliminated (by time cut) a huge swath of the 1/2 field at a fairly competitive stage race last year after one road stage and the next day’s TT. If I’d driven six hours and dedicated a weekend to a race I’d have been disappointed, so I can understand the desire to avoid an upgrade (sandbagging is a different story though). All of this notwithstanding, our system forces people to learn how to win (or at least learn how to get results) in order to progress.

While there are clearly issues with grading, I’d suggest to you that the major issue at Port Melbourne is that the fields are just becoming too big.

The problem with mandatory anything is as a potential barrier to new entrants to the sport.

Right now, you can rock up with ~$60 to race the first time – all you need is a bike and you are away.

Adding extra barriers to entry will make it much less attractive.

Obviously, I disagree.

For me, club level sport, such as Sunday morning Crits, is about participation. Somebody competing in D grade is just as important as an A grader. Before somebody starts training Monday to Saturday to race in A grade, they probably need to get a start in racing in D or E grade to develop that desire – or do people go from watching the Tour to training five days a week to racing in A grade.

I support the women’s races being run later, but I think this should happen by rotating all the grades.

I can see your point GM re the safety aspect. However, someone who is an incompetent bike handler will race erratically no matter what grade they race. So if they’re not putting you at risk they’ll be equally putting others at risk in the lower grades. Perhaps from a safety point of view clubs could encourage/mandate rookies (first season riders) to participate in bike handling training sessions.

That is a good problem to have.

A points based system/the North American & UK model sounds logical to me categorised by road, crit and maybe even TT as others have mentioned.

Those demonstrating acute #1 behaviour that jeopardises the safety of others should also be pulled, mentored or even banned, its all too often you hear the sound of cracking carbon with a few laps to go in the lower grades, usually by an inexperienced testosterone fueled move. Perhaps even a yellow/red card system for dangerous riding.

Likewise a national register of club results would also be a sound idea, have often looked in the paper for results each weekend wondering why aren’t more club results published, golfs are? The register could also include a history of a racers grades throughout seasons. Earn/lose points, move up/down a grade as per other models.

If done correctly, I assume a physical range average of grade ability could also be ascertained such as FTP, W/Kg and so on, so you know your limitations, strengths or the training you need to do to step up a grade if you want to. Sandbaggers could be highlighted here through results and grade movement. Talent could be spotted here as well. A history of grades could also show a grade average.

As for skills, that’s an individual issue, it would hope it would come with experience, with experience would come moving up grades. Attending training camps like Crowies Latte laps could add to a base point system, no matter the grade you race in.

If I have repeated anything my apologies.

We do that as well, mind you there not much track here in Canberra

Personally I like the idea of every racing cyclist in Oz whether its a Vets, CA or MTB club being asked to also buy a transponder when they get a licence.
Every course/track in the country could be given a ranking/level of difficulty and then adjustments made according to field numbers, weather etc on the day.
And then at the end off every race riders are given a ranking based on their performance that can be kept on a national data base.
If you add to it some sort of national club ranking system then this might disuade people from fudging their results(to abuse the system).
I think riders would love to see how they rank nationally.
Then you could turn up to any race in the country and be placed in the appropriate grade.
Alot of work?.. yes!
Just a thought.
And yes it could.notNot withoutfor

I have always found it amusing that when signing up to open races, the grading system appears to be
“please nominate 3 riders that are similar to your abilities….” There really needs to be a centralised system.

Aside note: signing up to open races (for me) is a little daunting as there isnt much information in the standard that is expected, some races are tough and others are extremely tough….

The UK/US system does have the advantage of putting off the sandbaggers. It is amazing how many times you hear ‘I have been sick’, ‘Not training well lately’ or ‘I have been off my bike for ages’ as the handicapper. To only find that the rider doing really well in the lower grade or just trying to keep themselfs from being put up before a big event.

I think any system, especially one that is a deviation from the current establishment, needs to be simple to work. The US system bases upgrades on mass-start events, so TT results are only useful in contributing to stage race placements (this may not be true for the highest/fastest categories, but it is for the lower ones). USAC licenses have categories listed for road, cyclocross, track and mtb.

So far as dangerous racing is concerned, officials can issue fines or other punitive measures based on the rules governing any given event (USAC, UCI, etc.).

I agree, I have won races against stronger riders on the sole basis that i ‘Knew” i could beat them.

Tried to read this post but the grammar was so poor I couldn’t understand it!!

The people commenting on CT need to be graded.. reading through 100+ comments is becoming overwhelming !!

The veracity of claims of sickness are easily verified via the submission of an accompanying medical certificate.

Surely we don’t need to re-invent the wheel for a ‘points classification system’. We have people on this blog from all over the world – who’ve participated/raced under such a system.
And I imagine it wouldn’t take much to obtain factual information, management guidelines, procedures, etc from our cycling bretheren in the US, UK etc. This will take the guesswork out of it and enable the Australian Cycling fraternity to see what is currently world’s best practice. At least then, informed decisions can be made about the best way to move forward for cycling in Australian at all levels.
If this is identified as a real issue, I suggest Clubs at the grass roots of cycling push this up the chain through their respective State bodies for escalation to the National level.
I don’t personally know of any person being killed in a local cycling event or race, but sadly, I’m sure they exist. If it can be shown that these State or National bodies have been negligent in providing suitable guidelines for mitigating risks associated with varying rider capabilities (ie rider competency), these bodies, whose mandate I believe should be to provide such governance, could be leaving themselves open to potential future legal action.
Thoughts?
PS – I’m not a lawyer and so would be keen to hear if there are grounds for such action… :-)

I agree with you Sam. The vast majority – and I mean vast – of participation both at race and leisure level, is not at A grade. The effort should be most heavily weighted toward the lower ends to encourage participation which clearly has a beneficial effect on the race scene, quality of riders and also enhances the changes of finding the next big thing.

I would contend that directing most of the resources at the top end has a marginal net effect when compared the gains directed at the lower grades.

That is not to abrogate the importance of A grade, obviously.

This does need to be addressed. I was an A grade track and crit rider but would be B or C in an open road race due to power to weight. It was a problem and therefore I never did many longer open road races. You could even look at different licenses and grading systems for different disciplines. But I’m sure the overriding objection to all this is the administration costs

This is a good point. Exceptions can almost always be covered. So, first time turner-upperers (and all of us were there once) can race without data/transponder etc. It means their data/results may not be recorded and may not go to the Big Database In The Sky. If they like racing, get their license etc, they get the associated supporting infrastructure.

An A grader having taken a few years off should be able to rejoin the A grade bunch because after all he should have the required “unconscious competence” required to cope. That and some fitness…..

harden up masher!!

No Stigma Spanky…B grade suits you just fine xo

Callum the problem is though, that the entire field is not reported. So, whilst the top 5 is, and under such a centrally managed grading system, those 5 would receive points etc, what about the rest of the field.

You are leaving a massive gap, hence the need for an automated system.

Under such a framework, everyone’s results would be sent, on a largely automated basis. The amount of work required for race volunteers (and I do stress that many are volunteers) would decrease (I image by a lot), whilst the transparency and efficiency would improve dramatically.

If you look at local Triathlon series as an example, that’s how to do it (though I would assert that a whole-of-race-lifetime transponder would remove most of the logistical issues around transponder pickup/return).

This is why I suggested a lifetime (whilst you hold a CA license and intend to race) transponder. One off cost. It could even be bonded. Return it, get half or all your money back.

Lose it, buy another.

The solution is so stunningly simple.

I hope people don’t let the underlying technologies or “how would you…” thoughts detract from the point that a national cohesive, broadly agreed framework that rids the system of 90% of the issues discussed in this post, is not a pipedream.

It simply needs a leader in CA to make it happen, based upon clear agitation for change from the paying members (which we are).

A survey/poll is probably an intelligent place to start. I will mock something up in SurveyMonkey now.

This is true, but I think the specific examples of “How To” have been mentioned more as a way of demonstrating how easy it is.

We have a really good example of managing the race day side of things: local triathlon scene and Tour of Bright.

As for the central system and rules etc, you are dead right, look around for existing systems.

Here is a survey on this. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/YNL9Y9C

People here have clearly demonstrated a desire for the current system to change, so here’s a chance at least to register your thoughts.

(I hope me setting this up was not too presumptuous)

Please note: proper survey construction is a Black Art, so if any survey-type heads out there can suggest a better way to do this, or a better way to word the questions, I am all ears. I tried to construct this to glean 1 clear piece of info: do things need to change. I thought that the distribution of race level might be of interest.

Bit.ly link for Twitter etc
http://svy.mk/i41eqs

yep, they sure do, the transponders are from an outfit called TIMES-7 Sport. not the bes t looking attachemnt to the bike thats for sure!

It is valid as long as your registration is paid up. is this type of system (RFID) not used in other events around Oz?

i think cycling sa have a stack of unassigned transponders, so rock up and want to race, hand over your cash get a transponder and they do the rest. i think they also ask for a small deposit for the transponder which you get back in full if you return in that day. its easy…if you want to make it happen

Sadly not. Clearly the solutions and infrastructure exist to make this happen. Just needs a groundswell of support from all of us.

I personally really want to help make this happen.

Comment for a future thread but how badly does cycling’s governing bodies want to fuc# up the Contador situation? Instead of backflipping just get it right first up.

Which club are you with? Are you on the committee, or taken it to the committee for consideration?

On the general subject of improvements, i noted the following in a recent update on the SA cycling website:

“Norwood and CSA are currently viewing a new entry system. The computer based program would see riders simply walk up swipe their license (similar to an EFTPOS machine) or Transponder and pay their nomination fee. That’s it, no signing on and waiting in long ques. The swiping is then linked to Times-7.”

Good bit of initiative in looking after member and reducing the burden on volunteers.

Link it all into CANADA, (the Cycling Australia National grAded DAtabase –presently vapourware)……. bitabang bitaboom!

It is sobering to realise the local A/Cat1-2′s are ‘also ran’ in domestic Pro races (who are also-ran’s in ‘real’ Pro races) … everybody benefits from participation … and no one outside of you 4 best-buds really cares who places where in the local Wednesday Night world champs. The day the amaturs are not about participation, they slowly wither away.

Infrastructure and services are clearly in place.

Database.
Rules/thresholds.
Deployment nationally.
Et, voila.

Carnegie Caulfield uses a scan/swipe system too. It is bloody awesome.

For large clubs, automated system time system would be a must. But for small country clubs (like the one I’m a part of) maybe not so much. We general lucky to have 10 riders per grade. And base on US system, a RR or crit 5-10 starters, only top 3 get upgrade points.

‘Cause I am a bit a a power geek; just for fun I did the following comparison of a ‘hard’ flatish crit; for an average master

A – 380w (at the front); 280w (draft)
B – 340w (at the front); 250w (draft)
C – 280w (at the front); 210w (draft)
D – 240w (at the front); 180w (draft)

Alot of overlap between driving & drafting, huh

This is a really, profoundly bad idea, for a host of obvious reasons.

One: the clubs already run successful races. It’s stupid to fix what isn’t broken.

Two: the clubs serve different geographic areas. If you live in Dandenong, you don’t want to have to travel to Port Melbourne and if you live in Altona, you don’t want to travel to Glenvale.

Three: if you want to spend your time traveling in order to see how you stack up against others, there is already the support race at the bay crits, as well as country crits like Bendigo, Mansfield and Castlemaine. Or you can just go to the other club’s race one week.

Four: CSV sanctioning complicates the entry procedure and the need for officials.

Five: If everyone who showed up at St Kilda and everyone who showed up at Carnegie showed up at another race, you would need to split the race into about 8-10 grades to keep the bunch numbers down, or it would sell out and you would have fewer people racing that weekend.

Six: In reality, not everyone would show up (eg, if the race was at Glenvale, some SKCC riders would go down the beach and vice versa), meaning your series just reduces the number of people racing. Not what CSV or the clubs would want.

Seven: If all the preceding is totally incorrect and it is a really good idea but I am too blind to see it, it doesn’t need CSV to do anything. The clubs can agree to hosting races alternately on their normal circuits or alternative circuits and then do it. This would at least save complicating the entry system. In reality, the clubs have successful series, that serve a lot of riders, they don’t want to lose control of the races they want and they don’t want meddling.

If there is something to your idea, go try to implement it instead of whinging. Talk to CCCC and SKCC officials and see what they think. Why CSV should cop flak for not implementing your strange and potentially counter-productive pipe dream, I don’t know.

Good point Mark. The road season calendar could use some shaking up. Snozza wanted to promote some road events with a more ‘user friendly’ format a few years ago and got shut out by CSV because they are quite protective (i) of certain race promoters and (ii) of the naming of races after certain old contributors to Victorian cycling. I think (ii) could be resolved by retaining the name and shifting the race format and promotion (eg, rather than the blah blah memorial handicap, make it the blah blah memorial tour/RR). (i) hopefully is shifting, I think it might be a little.

Early season Californian races are pretty cool – they are centered geographically in a single place, so shifting accomodation is less of an issue than it is in Murray/Gipps/Geelong, hence less team support required for logistics. They have graded racing, so you don’t get shafted after 20km and then time cut because of the AIS. All grades have decent (or sometimes excellent) neutral support provided by one of the big three component manufacturers. Almost always, every grade sells out. Often you will have three race weekends, with the first two being crit/RR and the last being a 3-5 day tour. The open/elite/pro grade does 5 days and the supporting grade starts with a prologue on the Friday – or you extend the race over the course of a long weekend. If this all sounds a little like Bright, it is. 2-4 more races like that would be phenomenal for the sport. If you based a tour out of Hall’s Gap, Warragul, Yarra Junction, etc, put in real road circuits with climbing and provided competition for all levels (A-E, p/1/2 or whatever you call it), I think you could have a number of financially successful races that really help the sport. Remember the Yarra Valley Tour Blackburn ran with CSV? That got heaps of riders out until it took out a road stage, eliminated the long climbs, added a crit, and changed from being based always within 20km of Healesville and Yarra Glen to being based on one day at The Basin, one at Yarra Glen and one at Thomastown. Gah.

I’m thinking allowing private promoters to do more, like with triathlon and MTB would provide a proper incentive to maximise participation, create a good experience for everyone, regardless of grade. I’d be happy to put up with increased entry fees AND reduced prize money if this happened (not for every race, understand, but for a few big race weekends each year).

Good point Mark. The road season calendar could use some shaking up. Snozza wanted to promote some road events with a more ‘user friendly’ format a few years ago and got shut out by CSV because they are quite protective (i) of certain race promoters and (ii) of the naming of races after certain old contributors to Victorian cycling. I think (ii) could be resolved by retaining the name and shifting the race format and promotion (eg, rather than the blah blah memorial handicap, make it the blah blah memorial tour/RR). (i) hopefully is shifting, I think it might be a little.

Early season Californian races are pretty cool – they are centered geographically in a single place, so shifting accomodation is less of an issue than it is in Murray/Gipps/Geelong, hence less team support required for logistics. They have graded racing, so you don’t get shafted after 20km and then time cut because of the AIS. All grades have decent (or sometimes excellent) neutral support provided by one of the big three component manufacturers. Almost always, every grade sells out. Often you will have three race weekends, with the first two being crit/RR and the last being a 3-5 day tour. The open/elite/pro grade does 5 days and the supporting grade starts with a prologue on the Friday – or you extend the race over the course of a long weekend. If this all sounds a little like Bright, it is. 2-4 more races like that would be phenomenal for the sport. If you based a tour out of Hall’s Gap, Warragul, Yarra Junction, etc, put in real road circuits with climbing and provided competition for all levels (A-E, p/1/2 or whatever you call it), I think you could have a number of financially successful races that really help the sport. Remember the Yarra Valley Tour Blackburn ran with CSV? That got heaps of riders out until it took out a road stage, eliminated the long climbs, added a crit, and changed from being based always within 20km of Healesville and Yarra Glen to being based on one day at The Basin, one at Yarra Glen and one at Thomastown. Gah.

I’m thinking allowing private promoters to do more, like with triathlon and MTB would provide a proper incentive to maximise participation, create a good experience for everyone, regardless of grade. I’d be happy to put up with increased entry fees AND reduced prize money if this happened (not for every race, understand, but for a few big race weekends each year).

Agree the course doesn’t help for accidents with big fields, but then its location and “relative” safety is why it is so big
Could you imagine field of 100 at Hawthorn – Carnage!

As someone who has raced bikes for fifteen years, seen hundreds (possibly thousands) of power files, trained with power myself, and coached several athletes at the elite level using power (talking international races here as well as club riders), I feel pretty confident saying this is not going to work. One, the testing is expensive – not everyone has a powermeter (especially a perfectly calibrated one!). Two, physiological potential is not the same as racing performance. Judge grades on the basis of racing performance. Tailor training with power. Anyone who thinks their FTP qualifies them to race a certain grade needs to remember we use power in order to train in order to race and to win – the numbers are not the game and they won’t win the game by themselves.

Those numbers are wrong.

They are not the hard to get… and create an administrative burden for the race organisers. I am sorry I came off a little harsh before. It sounds like you handled your situation in an appropriate way, and the transparency in the grading system would be good. I don’t agree racing is the only way to get your conditioning back, but it is a fun way and that should be taken into account.

I have personally raised such issues before and basically been told to man a corner.

I have personally raised such issues before and basically been told to man a corner.

It’s an interesting idea, opening it up to private enterprise (for profit races, effectively).
I’d want to be involved in that. Sponsorship, etc etc.

A few more races like ToB would be excellent, I agree. And good for country towns.

That’s a fair point. What if, for argument’s sake, the system was dead easy to use. Transponders, receiver at finish, connect to laptop.
Upload results that night (presuming no one at the race has a 3G phone with data capable of tethering).

Failing that, the results don’t get counted in national points system…

?

Their is alot of people in B or that have ‘promoted’ themselves to A purely so they can tell their mates they race A grade. Must feel so much more powerful that they can pin a ‘blue’ number on their back at the CCCC crits. Just don’t tell anyone you never went further forwards than 40th wheel and were sitting on 95% max hr the whole time.

This is true but if you see the amount of commitment and sacrifice in the pointier end of the amateurs, I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s just about participation. Plenty of local guys in A grade get pleasure from taking a win or two off pro’s and are good enough to do so. And if you know any history you know cycling in Australia hasn’t traditionally been about participation. This is a hard man’s sport. That’s not just a comment on any particular grade – I still remember the crusty old guys in D grade who were pro way back when, and could suffer like nothing else even though they were in their 70′s and 80′s.

Absolutely true. That’s crazy.

Well… it is open to private enterprise, as long as the guys who profit have the name Craven or Trevorrow. They have done plenty for the sport and I’m not badmouthing them specifically, but opening it up more would be good.

Have a look at races like Tour of the Gila, Mt Hood and the Cascade Classic, even Sea Otter and Redlands. All have serious pro’s and lower grades racing in a format similar to Bright. It would certainly be a boost to a town that did it. Tour of the Southern Grampians/Coleraine almost nails this setup, but Coleraine is under-resourced as a town – it has hardly anywhere to eat or stay, so it doesn’t quite get the atmosphere going like it might.

Get int touch with your club and get it added to the agenda for the next committee meeting – that’d be the first place to start.

“…in order to eliminate the problems…” Nice work putting a survey up but perhaps the wording is a little biased. This isn’t going to yield a fair sample and I would be pretty comfortable with CA/CSV ignoring the results. Do you think you could change it to a more neutral version? If you did I would encourage people I know to fill it out.

Specifically – don’t tell people to consider problems when they are answering the questions, don’t tell them it would make it easier for commisaires, etc. All of this biases people’s thinking. Some people might think it makes it harder for commi’s. Some people might have one opinion if they go in with an clear mind but another if they focus on the problems.

Eg: I would suggest eliminating:

“in order to eliminate many of the problems identified by commenters here http://bit.ly/g3HV55?”

And this whole question is uninformative:

“4. Do you think a system (as an example) that makes it easier for race marshals and volunteers to manage results and race logistics, is needed? This system might be something like a transponder for all racers (as long as they race), with all results for every race compiled and sent to CA to aid in a national points and grading classification.

The goal of such a system would be to improve transparency, promote safer races, promote and demote people as appropriate, remove the issues around grading anamolies between races, and make running races and submitting results much easier on everyone involved.

Please keep in mind that such a system could quite conceivably allow you to race in, for example, B grade in crits and C grade in road. With enough data and results, the whole system could easily take into account your ability and the type of race, to provide very accurate grading.”

Ask things like this (hone in on who is being served well and who is not, get demographics, don’t bias opinions, if there is actually a problem it will emerge pretty quickly and if not then we learnt something):

The grading system in the races I participate in works well [Strongly agree/agree/neutral/disagree/strong disagree]

The area I primarily race in is [State] [Metro/Country]

I regularly participate in the following races (tick all that apply): club track, open track, club road, open road, club crit, open crit, national series.

At club level I race [A B C D]

In the last Open event I rode [A B C D (have not ridden open in last 12 months)]

I was happy with the grading I received in the last open I rode [True/False/(no open last 12 months)]

What category rider [J11--->M1,000,000]

I am Male/Female

Ask these last because they propose specific solutions and can bias thinking:

I would be happy to pay $100 for a transponder in addition to my license fee if an electronic timing system was introduced at state or national level [T/F] (or use Likert scale strength of agreement like above – strongly agree–>str disagree)

I would support a national database of rider grades [T/F]

I would support a move to a US/UK style category system [T/F]

Specifically – don’t tell people to consider problems when they are answering the questions, don’t tell them it would make it easier for commisaires, etc. All of this biases people’s thinking. Some people might think it makes it harder for commi’s. Some people might have one opinion if they go in with an clear mind but another if they focus on the problems.

Eg: I would suggest eliminating:

“in order to eliminate many of the problems identified by commenters here http://bit.ly/g3HV55?”

And this whole question is uninformative:

“4. Do you think a system (as an example) that makes it easier for race marshals and volunteers to manage results and race logistics, is needed? This system might be something like a transponder for all racers (as long as they race), with all results for every race compiled and sent to CA to aid in a national points and grading classification.

The goal of such a system would be to improve transparency, promote safer races, promote and demote people as appropriate, remove the issues around grading anamolies between races, and make running races and submitting results much easier on everyone involved.

Please keep in mind that such a system could quite conceivably allow you to race in, for example, B grade in crits and C grade in road. With enough data and results, the whole system could easily take into account your ability and the type of race, to provide very accurate grading.”

Ask things like this (hone in on who is being served well and who is not, get demographics, don’t bias opinions, if there is actually a problem it will emerge pretty quickly and if not then we learnt something):

The grading system in the races I participate in works well [Strongly agree/agree/neutral/disagree/strong disagree]

The area I primarily race in is [State] [Metro/Country]

I regularly participate in the following races (tick all that apply): club track, open track, club road, open road, club crit, open crit, national series.

At club level I race [A B C D]

In the last Open event I rode [A B C D (have not ridden open in last 12 months)]

I was happy with the grading I received in the last open I rode [True/False/(no open last 12 months)]

What category rider [J11--->M1,000,000]

I am Male/Female

Ask these last because they propose specific solutions and can bias thinking:

I would be happy to pay $100 for a transponder in addition to my license fee if an electronic timing system was introduced at state or national level [T/F] (or use Likert scale strength of agreement like above – strongly agree–>str disagree)

I would support a national database of rider grades [T/F]

I would support a move to a US/UK style category system [T/F]

disclaimer, My personal opinion only.
Just as I love to race, i also love to participate. A little bit of banter and the social aspect is why I turn up every weekend.
Some race days I’m not in the mood to race (not switched on, over trained etc) so i will roll around with the D graders and offer advice or generally be a voice to what is happening in the group or other grades coming through, when and why to neutralize due to proximity of other grades etc.
I am not trying to portray myself as a saint, buy trying to give something back to the sport that has given something to me over the last 26 years, I was lucky that I had the “old buggers” to tutor me when I was a junior.
My opinion on grading is that there is too many monday office brag sessions regarding racing and what grade you raced, your grading should be earned and not self relegated.
Wades point about the instinctive racer is probably the best point, decision making without thought takes years of experience and cannot be taught by a book or website, a recent example is the point Wade made regarding the storms we had when he was on the decent on the 1/20, his decision to bunny hop over the obstruction would have been made on instinct, and probably practiced from many hours “playing” around on the bike.
I have personally got myself out of many accident situations using the same manoeuvre, or a la’ lance using the runoff of the road to avoid situations.
I am teaching my 7 year old daughters on their bikes regarding obstacles by using the old bunny hop method, braking, cornering & sliding and having some fun at the same time.
Skills must be taught and perfected, and by mixing a group of instinctive riders in a race, all reading the moves and making reflex actions with a less experienced group of riders who think they are “instinctive riders” is a recipe for disaster.
Wade i would be interested on your thoughts based on the experience you had in regards not only to physical fitness but also mental fitness (fatigue) while racing against a higher echelon and how long it took to adapt.

Agreed! I’m not sure when Tim has time to ride he spends all his time commenting on Cycling Tips!! ;-)

Coach, I’m interested in what numbers you use; and where my assumptions are wrong

This is what I use:

Assuming a 165lbs/75kg old fatty master

And taking the Allen/Coggan numbers (plus often you ‘drive’ just over FTP)
Cat.I/II (A grade) – 4.75 w/kg FTP (360w) [380w @ ~5% above FTP]
Cat.III (B grade) – 4.2 w/kg FTP (320w) [340w @ ~5% above FTP]
Cat.IV (C grade) – 3.6 w/kg FTP (270w) [280w @ ~5% above FTP]
Cat.V (D grade) – 3.1 w/kg FTP (230w) [240w @ ~5% above FTP]

Plus the following speed assumptions for the classes (‘driving’ speed)
Cat.I/II (A grade) – 28 mph / 45 kph
Cat.III (B grade) – 26 mph / 42 kph
Cat.IV (C grade) – 24 mph / 38 kph
Cat.V (D grade) – 22 mph / 35 kph

I calculated the Power numbers for a flat ride (at I think 82kg (rider+bike)) a while back as
22mph/35kph == 240w
24mph/38kph == 280w
26mph/42kph == 340w
28mph/45kph == 380w

Also assume 25% savings from drafting.
22mph/35kph == 180w (in draft)
24mph/38kph == 210w (in draft)
26mph/42kph == 250w (in draft)
28mph/45kph == 280w (in draft)

These have mostly rung true from my (n=1) experience.

Corrections?

Ah cool! I race at about 75kg so my numbers are sort of informative here.. Basically, the variability in saving in the draft is massive and the variability in courses is massive, so those numbers are rarely right. I did one race in the last two years that fits that profile, where I sat on for a while, then made a series of efforts and ended up in a 2-up break. The front of the break was about 380W and sitting in the bunch before the break was about 280W (it was single file at National Boulevard). To give you an idea of how different draft and front can be… I have done a North Road Ride (before I decided anyone who does it is insane) where we averaged 55km/h for about a 15-20 minute section. In the bunch was averaging ~260W. Hit the front a few times for ~600W+. If you are rolling in a paceline in A grade you’ll often be coming through at over 450-500W, if it’s an easy race. Still, a while ago I gave an athlete a challenge: ride the first half hour of Glenvale at less than 250W average. That’s a comfortable 40% saving at least. He did it easily and it wasn’t a slow race. At Kew Boulie, most laps a 75kg A grader, on the wheel or on the front, is going to be over 1000W coming out of the corner and well over 500W (often 600+) for the entire hill. As far as the draft saving %age, I think that is another place a lot of the error comes in. Say on a flat, drafting one guy at a certain speed (I don’t know which speed) might save 25%, but really, it could be anywhere from 5% (gutter/big crosswind/single file) to 80% (big bunch/in the middle/riders close together and smooth).

Have you monitored your race with a power meter? If you are typically driving just over FTP (5% over) you might want to consider taking fewer efforts and making the ones you do take count more. For non-sprinters, the most successful effort profile in a crit will not involve hanging around FTP a lot. Occasionally someone beasts it and wins solo from a long way out, but for most people, the aim should be to save as much power as possible for as late as possible then pick your moment. Don’t spend time at FTP – stay well below and then jump all out when the chips are in your favour: watch body language, use momentum, and take advantage of those VO2 intervals I know all you power geeks do. :)

Hope that helps?

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Robert Russell, isquadra, Pro Cycling News, squadra11sp, superrecord11sp and others. superrecord11sp said: Interesting problem to have : http://bit.ly/fBqmiZ the grading of rider abilities in races. #cycling #cyclingtips [...]

Fair point, I will change.

I don’t want to make it too in-depth as I just want to get a very clear idea of whether etc needs to change.

What value will Male/Female add?
What value does the question “In the last Open event I rode….” add.
The “I was happy with the grading” I think is misleading. Someone may be happy with their last grading, but that isn’t to say that there isn’t a problem overall?

I also can’t change some of the questions as it will clear the results. I’ll add some of the ones you say.

The problem with the UK/US system question is you are assuming the reader is familiar with these systems (I am not).

Thanks!

Fair point, I will change.

I don’t want to make it too in-depth as I just want to get a very clear idea of whether etc needs to change.

What value will Male/Female add?
What value does the question “In the last Open event I rode….” add.
The “I was happy with the grading” I think is misleading. Someone may be happy with their last grading, but that isn’t to say that there isn’t a problem overall?

I also can’t change some of the questions as it will clear the results. I’ll add some of the ones you say.

The problem with the UK/US system question is you are assuming the reader is familiar with these systems (I am not).

Thanks!

Exactly what I am doing

Nice one, the more volunteers the better! You’ll probably find that this is already being discussed, or has already been discussed before, and you will get some insights into what needs to be done to make this work.

A 75 kg D grade rider on a 7kg bike? Maybe on average, when you include the kids.

And 35km/h average speed? We haven’t averaged below 38km/h in D grade in any of the last three weeks at SKCC.

And we would pay what ? $40 or $50 for a “CSV” Open crit ? enter a fortnight before and wait a fortnight for results -)

Clubs run crits well and “cheaply” due to the help of volunteers. That is what clubs are about. Clubs get revenue, exposure and members out of it. Get CSV involved in what are currently club events and you add costs, another mouth to feed. A tax, whatever you want to call it. ……….Look at the locally based “Open” events and the costs of entering v Club events. Get promoters involved who are looking to turn a profit and big $$ sponsorship is required to even get an event off the ground.

Leave the clubs to do what they are good at, grass roots and use CSV as an Administrative body – demand they provide us with proper administration – a part of which should be a proper ranking/results/hanicapping system.

I’m not sure if you mean that (you+your-kids) == 75kg; or the young lads racing at 50kg that bring the average weight down :)

The point really was that there is a huge difference in drafting; the folks pulling around at 38kph could be sitting in at 42-45kph and the folks drafting at 40kph could probably ride at 34kph by themselves.

I find that racing is more than steady state and it is typically the surges not the averages that determine who wins, who is pack-fodder and who gets shelled.

Gotcha … I don’t think we are really that far apart. My point was that someone who is ‘hanging-on’ in a flat crit say in B-grade; is likely making the same watts as if they were ‘making the race’ in D-grade. The real determinator for my 2-cents worth is the ability to surge when needed (1min & 5min power) and read the race; and that comes with focused training and experience.

That said I think that there is a certain FTP that is the ‘cost of entry’; but I’ve found that most flat crit results are dominated by sit-on sprinters (my personal experience was that was easier making the race (and upgrades) at cat.III than getting cat.IV upgrade points; but that made me between pack-fodder & shelled in cat.II … now I’m back racing and have a power meter to train/race with I am struck by how close us amateurs are, the grades have significant overlap … and the fun is in matching your time-commitment/race-objectives with the appropiate grade).

Yes, I have trained & raced with a power meter; and done a bunch of things to see what the wattages are (dragging everyone around at FTP; sitting-in as much as I can to minimize watts; waiting for a break and doing VO2 bridge; doing a last lap 1min max wattage attack etc). The 5% over over FTP comment was simply a personal observation that when I am ‘comfortably’ on the front/alone I am actually just over FTP; but yes when I am ‘drilling-it’ in a rotation I am well over FTP (and often VO2).

Spot on

Always a topic that elicits opinions. Here’s another: if 90 or so of the 100 A-graders at SKCC on Sunday were honest with themselves, they would all stand next to no chance of winning… even if their teams were working for them. Such is the nature of A grade that it is open-ended and so the best riders are a step-change better level than the rest of the bunch but have nowhere to go.

I like the idea of an “Elite” grade that is above the usual club A grade. Way more than half of the local A grade fields wouldn’t make it into the Elite race, which might be a harsh reality that many would not be willing to face.

As for the competence of riders, you rarely turn on the tv to a pro cycle race where no-one ends up on the floor. If anything, the crash rate for the pros seems to be higher than club racing. Why? Because they are highly skilled and so ride with much less margin for error. Small mistakes result in crashes. In the lower grades, small mistakes result in near misses but they make more big mistakes.

If only we could race the people who post comments here because all of them are extremely competent or self aware of their shortcomings.

Ritch

I may be moving to oz from the US soon, and I’m kind of shocked to learn there’s no national-level categorization. You can just show up and race whatever cat you want…that’s crazy. Please stop overthinking this: Just adopt the US system wholesale. It’s been refined over the years and works very well. The skills and fitness progress nicely from cat 5 through 1, and obviously dominant riders get upgraded quickly. Nearly every race is permitted by USA Cycling, everyone who races in a USA Cycling race has to have a license, and race organizers have to report the results (upload an Excel file of results) in a timely fashion.

[...] * Update April 28. Turns out the winner of C grade is apparently off to Belgium to race? How is someone racing in Belgium allowed to race C? Another good example of the need for a nationwide grading system. [...]

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