The Geometry of Bike Handling

baum1

February 25, 2011

Over the past year I've gotten to know Darren Baum of Baum Cycles. He's always been very generous with his time and knowledge when I come to pick his brain. He's refreshingly honest and he says it like it is. He loves to talk shop and is a wealth of information. Last time we spoke I asked him the seemingly simple question about his views on frame geometry and how it affects the handling of a bike. He talked my ear off for nearly 2 hrs! I'll try to give you the quick version of it.

First of all, when we talk about  bike “handling”, we are basically referring to how much input is required to make the bike turn. When you hear about how”compliant” a bike is, it has nothing to do with handling. A misconception is that a soft riding bike is a slow turning bike. Seat say angles or how compliant the bike is has very little to do with handling.

One of the biggest myths out there is that small fork rake dimension is a faster steering bike (fork rake typically varies from 40-55mm). This is completely false. People tend to believe this because most touring bikes have a lot of fork rake. Touring bikes are actually very fast steering bikes. At the other end of the spectrum, track bikes are not fast handling bikes. Contrary to popular belief, they’re very slow steering bikes.

Do you ever look at the geometry specs of a bike and wonder what you’re actually looking at to determine if that bike is for you? Does anything make sense to you except for the top tube length? Me neither…

Does anyone else know how to translate this into how a bike handles?

I want to be able to look at a geometry chart and know a couple things. First, what size I need. I usually look at the top tube to determine this (‘B’ in the above chart). Second, it would be nice to understand what handling characteristics I can expect from the geometry the bike is built with.

Before we begin, let me start with a disclaimer. As with most things that have as many variables as a bike there are many opinions. If you ask 10 engineers how a bike is to be designed you’ll get 20 different answers. Darren offers one perspective based on his experience and opinion (which is highly regarded in the industry).

The handling of a bike is related to four factors:

1. Trail

2. Bottom bracket drop

3. Chain stay length

4. Stem length and position

Trail

The product of head angle and fork rake gives you what is referred to as “trail“.  Trail is a figure that will reflect how fast a bike actually steers. More trail equates to slower steering, less trail will make faster steering. Increasing fork rake for a given head tube angle will decrease trail, therefore giving faster steering at the front end. More trail is good at high speeds, but at slower speeds it can make the bike feel sluggish. Trail can be thought of as the tire contact point trailing behind the steering axis.

This is often confused with the curvature or angle of the fork blades. As more rake will equate to faster steering, more trail will actually result in the opposite. See the chart below to make sense of this.

Bottom Bracket Drop

In Baum’s opinion, the lower the bottom bracket (BB), the better the bike handles. What is meant by “better” is more responsive ‘rear end‘ steering. This provides a lower center of gravity and makes the bike more stable. Unfortunately the disadvantage of a low BB is that you can’t pedal through a corner if it’s too low. A bike that might be referred to a “criterium bike” is considered to be good at criteriums because of the high BB drop. As the BB is brought higher, the steering needs to be slowed down. A characteristic of criterium riding are it’s fast corners. In order to have good clearance so you can pedal around those corners, the bottom bracket needs to be high. As you bring the BB up, it’s harder to steer the bike with your backside (you steer a bike using two forces: one with your backside, and one with your hands). In order to lighten the steering up to slow it down, the bike needs to be built with more trail.

For example, you don’t want a BB drop of 65mm and a trail approaching 70mm as this will give a slow rear end that you’re going to need to put in a fair effort with your rear to steer whilst at the same time having a front end that is moving with the smallest input.

For example, you know when you descend and reach speeds of 65-70km/hr and the bike all of a sudden starts to stiffen up?  Momentum seems to get under it and the faster you go the harder it is to steer (more countersteering required).  If you have a lower bottom bracket and more rake, this sensation of the bike stiffening up comes along at faster speeds. In other words, a lower BB is better for descending. Touring bikes (without racks and panniers) are actually missiles on the descents!

Another example of this the way a track bike is typically built. A track bike has a high bottom bracket so you don’t hit the pedal on the banking of the velodrome, but it also has very slow steering.

When talking about a bike with 700c wheels, a BB drop that would be good for criteriums would range from 65-68mm. A low BB drop that would be on the opposite end of the scale that’s good for touring would be about 80mm. Most bike manufacturers have settled on 65-70mm of BB drop in their frame geometries for race bikes.

So, a higher bottom bracket makes it harder to steer the bike from the rear, and the less rake that’s required to balance the two steering forces. A very awkward feeling bike is when you have very light steering on the handlebars and heavy steering with your bum (i.e. a low bottom bracket).  The trick is getting the geometry of the bike balanced between these two steering sensations.

Chain Stay Length

In Darren’s opinion, longer chain stays help deliver a better quality ride. When you climb, the bike has more traction. When you go through a corner, the bike trails further and you can hop on the pedals earlier. The intended use of the bike is a big consideration however.

When chainstays started getting shorter throughout history (late 60′s, early 70′s), it was when riders started getting more powerful and the technology didn’t exist to make the materials strong enough for the desired stiffness. Therefore the chainstays were designed shorter in order to make the bike stiffer. A good bike was considered one that you could barely fit a Tally-Ho cigarette paper in between the rear wheel and the seat tube. This design had nothing to do with handling. It was all about making the bike stiffer. People started identifying this small rear triangle as a “race bike”, and therefore a race bike must handle better. This never changed as materials progressed.

These days the materials exist to make a long chainstay that is still very stiff. However if you have a longer rear end, the bike naturally needs to be manufactured with more material and therefore will be heavier. These days in the industry there is a race for the lightest spec’d bike. What does Baum do with their bikes? They recommend making the rear end as long as acceptable by the customer.

If you’re flexible and can bend forward, 412mm is what Baum will recommend. If the rider sits more upright, the chainstay might go as long as 420mm. If the rider is really tall (i.e. over 6’3″), and the femer is very long, 430mm might be required. The reason for this starts to relate back to seat tube angle and pedalling technique, however I think we might leave that one for another discussion.

Stem Length And Height

The stem isn’t part of the frame per se, but it’s position does affect handling. The longer and lower the stem, the bike will handle with more stability. This doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good idea to put your stem as low and long as possible however. You actually have to be able to reach it comfortably with your elbows bent and have the flexibility to be in that position.

If you draw a line down to the front axel from where your hands are placed on the handlebars drops, the closer those are together with falling in line with each other, the more stable the bike becomes. For example, track bikes usually have long and low stems.

Conclusion

From all of this you still probably won’t be able to look at a geometry chart to get an indication of the handling characteristics of a bike. The information that’s included in the geometry specs is up to the manufacturer and how informed they want to keep the customer. Cannondale has been including trail and BB drop in their charts for years. Many others don’t. If you want to work out these measurements for yourself based on a geometry drawing of a bike you’re interested in, you can plug the figures into BikeCAD.

The Finished Product

One of the most beautiful works of art that I’ve every laid eyes on. How does it handle? Hopefully one day I’ll find out…




SIMILAR ENTRIES

Showing 5 entries
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  • http://twitter.com/norbs norbs

    Damn fine looking bike. I’ll take 2 please!

  • Aaron Smith

    Unfortunately the biggest variable is the person sitting on the bike. Being a good descender i’ve had friends that say their bike is crap or sketchy at descending & they’ve asked me to give my opinion of their bike. I took one for a ride down Tawonga & it was on rails, beautifull. Soaked up the bumps & stayed on line. Great article Wade, love this tech stuff.

  • Anonymous

    Ahh yes.. good to see you catching up. Downhill Mountainbikes allow for tuning of bottom-bracket heights and changing characteristics using different suspension mounts, sag rates etc. handlebar width also a big factor, although no so much on a road bike. Have been able to get bb quite low on the old downhiller using shorter cranks etc. Re road, I really enjoy the differences between the geometry on my Scapin and Parlee. Both very good in their unique ways. Been keeping an eye on Baum from their early days. A custom Baum is on top of my list when I eventually replace one of my current rides. Been speaking to Darren at various races, his work is incredible. Class act.

  • Anonymous

    Ahh yes.. good to see you catching up. Downhill Mountainbikes allow for tuning of bottom-bracket heights and changing characteristics using different suspension mounts, sag rates etc. handlebar width also a big factor, although no so much on a road bike. Have been able to get bb quite low on the old downhiller using shorter cranks etc. Re road, I really enjoy the differences between the geometry on my Scapin and Parlee. Both very good in their unique ways. Been keeping an eye on Baum from their early days. A custom Baum is on top of my list when I eventually replace one of my current rides. Been speaking to Darren at various races, his work is incredible. Class act.

  • http://www.cyclingTipsBlog.com cyclingTips

    Agreed Aaron. The topic of Speed Wobble came up in our conversation when researching this post. I’m saving this for a whole other article on it’s own.

  • SupermanSam

    Spot on norbs. Dunno why, but the Baum is on my ‘deserted island’ list of 5 bikes I’d have to have.

    Great looking bike.

  • http://topsy.com/www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/02/the-geometry-of-bike-handling/?utm_source=pingback&utm_campaign=L2 Tweets that mention The Geometry of Bike Handling — Topsy.com

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  • Toneredd

    Great article ( again ) wish I had the $ to buy one of his bikes, they are a work of Art.

  • jules

    when i used to race crits at dunlop road springvale (do they still race there?), which had mostly 90 deg. corners, no matter what i tried, i’d always lose a bike length or two around corners. no doubt growing a bigger pair would have helped, but at 6’3 i reckon i was at a disadvantage. the thing is, on sharp corners you can’t pedal anyway so raising the BB would have been a hindrance wouldn’t it? although that course had one sweeper that was always on the limit of pedal clearance – i remember one guy ending up in the bushes after clipping his.

  • Anonymous
  • Jeremy Bjorn Nielsen

    with stem length positioning and length this obviously depends on the individual but what do you think about the method of fitting where you can only see the front hub in the drops but not on the hoods, is this accurate? i have been set up this way and it feels right but is it any different to getting set up on complex computer software??

  • Seanpham

    can’t wait, I have a set of carbonwheels that I am too scare to use.

  • Seanpham

    can’t wait, I have a set of carbonwheels that I am too scare to use.

  • http://twitter.com/jamescbdunn James Dunn

    So many un-asked questions answered!

  • Tim

    Great post Wade (again), post my questions on a the 586RSP!

    So, basically, Rake can be thought of in terms of how vertical the forks are. More vert = more rake?

    Do you have mathematical equations for these? I like to plug numbers in, helps me visualise…
    tim

  • Tim

    Btw, Rivendell Bikes have some interesting insights into actual bike fit (as opposed to handling).

  • Tim

    Hey CT: a suggestion.

    A diagram or table (“heat map”) showing how differing numbers in the metrics (BB drop, trail etc) start affecting handling…e.g. as wel increase trail beyond X mm, the bike gets slower, and beyond Y, it’s like trying to drive an XF falcon with 5 blokes and 20 slabs in it with no power steering.
    Same for BB drop etc.

    Would be very useful.

    Btw, very educational post.

  • mungbean

    One day I will have a Baum….. *drooling*

  • Tim

    FYI, Look bikes include BB drop, trail, head angle, rake etc http://www.lookcycle.com/media/catalog/product/l/o/look_geometry_2011_34.pdf

  • http://www.BrandWorld.com.au/ Priestie

    2 Triangles and a Fork >>> Sounds sooo simple, has produced sooo many variations.

    Great article, thanks Wade & Darren.

  • Sumbitor

    I think ur talking about steering head angle. that and fork rake (offset) r not the same thing

  • Anonymous

    Great post. I too have been researching this on the web and this is timely. As you have said, ask ten people and you will get 20 different answers. I am looking at a new frame and I have the design drawings for it, but then interpreting these is the issue. I have found that the information that you have described is pretty much what is out there, but explained and summarised well.

    I like that BikeCAD as well

    Thanks Wade.

  • Anonymous

    So many un-answered questions asked……:P

  • jules

    rake is the distance between the steering axis and a parallel line that passes through the front axle. a straight fork that was concentric (lined up with) the steering axis would have a rake of 0.

  • Mat

    A really interesting post and great to see the Baum name out there. As an amateur frame builder, I have found the biggest variable in handling is how much improvement the rider thinks a new frame going to give them in terms of performance versus their actual skill level and willingness to observe and practice their bike riding. As a couple of other comments have mentioned, some riders complain about bikes that other riders have no problem with and many times it is a perception vs reality debate.
    Too many cyclists spend their days cruising up and down Beach Rd (insert other straight, flat road here) then wonder why they get dropped whenever they ride the Dandenongs.
    There are skills involved in bike riding. You need to practice them.

  • Simon

    Good article, thanks Wade. I relied on experience, the sensible articles from Rivendell and the writings of our very own bike fit guru Steve Hogg to design my bike that Ewen Gellie built. I went for 42.5cm chainstays, lower BB height, relaxed seat tube angle of 72.5degrees and the bike is a pleasure to ride. Descends like an arrow but is a comfortable all day machine. I can easily ride in the drops for kms without discomfort. The only thing Ewen changed after discussion was the top tube slope to 4 degrees.

    That Baum is aesthetically beautiful too. I know someone with two Baums and they rate Darren so highly the Vatican are building a dossier for his beatification.

  • Sam

    Maybe it was just that you did the right thing and didn’t pedal, while others continue to pedal through the corner. This is what I blame. Though, maybe at 6’4″ I am at a disadvantage as well.

  • DJ

    Eastern Vets are racing at Dunlop Rd on Saturday

  • eatmorelard

    I’m always curious about the whole seat tube angle and optimum position of knee compared to pedal. I’m 188cm, ride a 58cm with a 110mm stem, and flexy in the hips. I’ve had a couple of bike fits and I always end up with the saddle almost as far forward as possible on the rails. I’ve had a swap out seat posts with setbacks to accommodate my obvious odd personal anatomy. If I go a shorter top tube, the saddle drop ends up a ridiculous amount.

    What’s the current thinking on KOPS etc.? Most of my riding is on hilly courses.

    Dream bike, by the way.. . I see a mid-life crisis bike – Ti Baum with Super Record!

  • Robertbb

    So do Ridley.

  • jules

    i meant that i was losing out on the sharp corners where everyone was cranked over to the max and no one was pedaling. in that case, according to my understanding of the article here, a lower BB would have assisted (better handling). but it would have made pedaling through the sweeper more difficult (or just risky).

    so i wonder if optimum BB height is actually a function of the course layout?

  • http://shadowlans.net/ Andy

    Looking forward to this as I find my bike becomes a touch unstable at high-speeds. It’s even worse when there’s any sort of cross-breeze. I used to be a VERY fast descender when I was much younger (often hitting greater than 90km/h) so I don’t know if it’s due to me being 15+ years older or the new light-weight bikes of today…

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    Hey Jules. If a customer was loking for a pure crit machine then we would certainly not be dropping the BB as much as mentioned in the article. We would however also explain the restrictions of this specific geometry. There is always the question of trade offs.

    Also as mentioned (and in no reference to you at all jules) there is the rider element too.

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    Hey Jules. If a customer was loking for a pure crit machine then we would certainly not be dropping the BB as much as mentioned in the article. We would however also explain the restrictions of this specific geometry. There is always the question of trade offs.

    Also as mentioned (and in no reference to you at all jules) there is the rider element too.

  • jules

    thanks darren. like everyone else i’ve spoken to, owning one your exquisite bikes is very high on the list of desirable purchases, but i’m unsure i could bring myself to race crits on it :)

  • Andrew

    Nice article Wade, it’s always interesting to read about the thought processes that go into the build of a bike, especially one as beautiful as the Baum.

    Might want to check the section ‘Bottom Bracket Drop’ – the 3rd and 7th paragraphs of that section contain rather a few repeated elements, I’m guessing the 7th was probably something you were planning to remove and then forgot about?

  • phil

    I’ve been riding a baum for 12 months now and despite not fully understanding Darren’s wisdom at the time, I now live it every time I ride – My previous bike, time vxr, i thought was great, but now I realise how hard I was working to handle/control this bike. The baum delivers a race bike that’s calm & comfortable.

    Having said that, I managed to drop it in the last lap, last corner at Sandown last night (not pedal strike, too much speed & lean in the corner) – most definitely operator error.

  • Derek

    Aesthetically: thank Gulf oil of LeMan……was that the inspiration Darren?
    If TAG can make a watch, I think it’s brilliant!

  • Anonymous

    I’ve done things to my baum(s) that would make a catholic schoolgirl blush and they’ve never skipped a beat.

  • GT

    My Baum is my race bike, climbing bike, wet weather bike and pack it up and take it overseas bike.
    3 years old now and love it every time I ride it. Get one, you will not regret it.

  • http://www.cyclingTipsBlog.com cyclingTips

    Damn…this article alone took nearly 12hrs to write. Any chance you could do the heat map diagram for me?

  • http://www.cyclingTipsBlog.com cyclingTips

    Thanks Andrew. Corrected. I really should get someone to proof read my stuff before posting. Sometimes when I look at it for hours I begin to miss obvious details.

  • Blybo

    Great article. Could of used it a month ago when I was building my all rounder, kid towing, disc brake, CX bike. My issue was the frame I wanted had a very odd geometry compared to my road bike, a Cervelo R3. Just by comparing TT lengths would have put me on a 51 frame even though I’m a Collingwood 6 footer. What the… Thankfully Cervelo use stack and reach figures in their geometry charts and by plugging the figures into an online calculator I was able to find a size which sounded wrong but rides just the way I wanted. all manufacturers should include stack and reach as part of their geometry figures; would make it infinitely easier to compare frames for fit, not necessarily handling.

  • Blybo

    This is in no way a criticism of Baum (I’d love to have one someday) but could somebody explain the need for a setback seat post on a custom built bike?

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    When at a VIS camp they were teaching this theory and I questioned it as I hard such a long nose and it was giving me an unusually long top tube

    ;-)

    still waiting on my answer…

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    Flexibility within the fit, as it is not a static measurement and can and does change.

    Although this could be a later topic for Wade? Maybe not for a while though, he has to recover from this one first we think.

  • http://hmmm.stevencaddy.com/ Steve

    Just a quick question, Darren —

    Given that geometry is a balance between compromises and most people aren’t going to be buying more than one of your bikes (‘Oh yeah, this is my crit-racing Baum, this is my road racing Baum…’), do you have a favourite set of geometry? If you could only build one bike for yourself, what would it be like?

  • http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f15/friday-picfest-no-102-a-20078.html#post274421 Friday PicFest No.102

    [...] Friday PicFest No.102 Caused a bit of a stir down under The Geometry of Bike Handling We know some of you would love to weigh in on this one! [...]

  • Matt

    dont worry readers, no bark off the Baum. quite a bit off the rider though

  • pinarello413

    I don’t really worry much about geometry, I just let Fausto Pinarello do the worrying for me.

    Nice bike that Baum.
    I will get one in steel oneday (do they do steel?) just to say I have a steel bike. Not too light either, 8 kilo mark would be fine. Something that I could take both hands off the handlebars and not worry too much about dropping it if you know what I mean.

    In all seriousness though, how much would it cost me to change the ‘B’ to a ‘D’?

    Thanks,
    Matthew DAUM
    PS (Wade, you can pass on my email to Baum Cycles)

  • http://twitter.com/FlashingPedals Pro Cycling News

    excellent article on a subject that many fail to consider. well done.

  • http://news.thylacinecycles.com Thylacine

    There’s so much more to steering geometry than what’s in this transposition – things such as wheel flop / front wheel contact patch, and the way that stem length in conjunction with handlebar specifications effect that rate at which steering can be initiated.

    I would really love to do as a research project proper analytical bike fit and geometry – including the missing link which is CoG which nobody ever speaks about :-)

    I especially enjoyed the comment from a poster about Mr.Pinarello dictating his geometry. That’s the bonus of Custom bikes – no being dictated to!

    One other thing about geometry I find really fascinating, is the baggage that the road scene has been lumped with – largely because some Italian bloke said that’s the way it should be and everyone stood around like idiots nodding their heads for 30 years. I’m glad like myself Darren is trumpting the benefits of proportionately longer stays.

    At the risk of hijacking, more of my drivel here -

    http://www.thylacinecycles.com/index.php?page=verbage.html

  • http://www.oli.co.nz/ Oli

    Great article, and it also makes me want a Baum even more than I already did.

  • AaronG

    OK, It’s Friday night, I’ve just worked 5 days and had 2 beers tonight, then started reading this article. Have I come to the right place? I thought I typed “www.cyclingtipsblog”? All I got was Newton’s laws of motion and some sorta maths club!

    I’m gonna clear my head and go for a ride……………………

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    One bike, one bike only geometry: 75BB 73 head angle 52mm rake 418 chain stay’s married to a 130mm-140mm stem depending on flexibility (also have a real life wife!) .

  • http://twitter.com/baumcycles Baum Cycles

    For all those following, absolutely we build steel. As long as Darren is the boss there will always be steel in the Baum range. As for the “B” “D” issue anything is possible at a $$$$$$$$$$$

  • http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f7/baum-subject-bike-handling-geometry-20085.html#post274440 Baum: On the subject of Bike Handling and Geometry

    [...] [...]

  • Todd!

    I did something I had been dreaming of for a few years since I first saw a Baum… I joined the line…

    I waited 6 months… and on a Monday afternoon, I drove to my home town in Geelong and picked up my new Baum Corretto. Since then I have done a measly 1200km on it in 5 months due to a very busy work schedule… But from my experience, roll up all the usual bike cliches into a sentence and spit them out… the bike is just everything you can imagine and it subtly wills you to go faster and faster. I cant fault it.

    and because I love whoring my pictures…
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/baumcycles/5454543889/in/set-72157626078055070/

    Some of you might have seen it in Adelaide at the TDU (I was in a world of pain, but rode the Challenge ride out in agony…)

    The bike was also nominated for Bike of the Year on weightweenies and finished 5th… not bad for a Ti 6.6kg bike.

    Darren also has the enviable position of having two very recent/current Aussie with World Champs as happy paying customers. One even having two of his bikes and a regular visitor for fitting and position/efficiency advice…

  • Anonymous

    I’ve had my Baum Corretto for just on 12 months now, having ridden a C50 for 5 years before that. The Baum is superior in every regard (and I used to adore my C50). It’s a sensational descender and an even better climber – which is a wonderful thing to have in a bike when you’re 100+kg and tend to struggle when the roads head upwards.

    The other incredible thing about the bike is that I am just as comfortable riding in the drops as I am on the tops and on the hoods – something that has done wonders for my sprinting – but I kind of knew that this was in store, as when I was at the factory for my original fitting, the guys were very particular about ensuring that this would be the case.

    Interestingly, Darren’s one-bike geometry above is very similar to mine (including the 130mm stem) though my chain stays are a tad longer at 420mm (rather than 418) but then, I am 193cm tall.

    If you’re interested, you’ll find plenty of pics of my bike here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholasodonnell/sets/72157623399997257/

  • Broke_spoke

    when did a bicycle become so complicated ?albeit a beautiful machine though!

  • Anonymous

    Very nice article!
    One question: longer chainstays mean, for a given weight distribution, a proportionately longer wheelbase. That means for a given lateral displacement of the front tire, a proportionately smaller change in bearing.

    When positive trail coupled with lean causes the front wheel to flop, the speed of the bike translates that into lateral displacement. That gets translated into a change in bearing proportional to the sine of the wheel angle multiplied by time multiplied by bike speed divided by wheelbase (measured in radians). Wheelbase is in the denominator.

    This, it seems, should result in slower steering. A tandem, for example, tends to have slower steering than a short-wheelbase single bike, for example.

  • Timiji

    To my rookie eyes, 140mm stem seems a lot of stem.
    But then 36-24-36 is not a real life wife, I know.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8bFT4HsLfE

  • Timiji

    To my rookie eyes, 140mm stem seems a lot of stem.
    But then 36-24-36 is not a real life wife, I know.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8bFT4HsLfE

  • http://news.thylacinecycles.com Thylacine

    You have to realise that road bikes don’t really have to turn in all that much. Have a look at your average MTB and the tight slow speed turns that has to do, then look at a road bike. The differences between the geometry and handling of all road based designs is very subtle.

    @nicdonnell – We constantly fit people up coming off Colnagos. ‘Italian’ geometry? Let’s just say I’m not a fan. Like yourself I’m also 193cm and like 420mm chainstays….then again I also like 71 degree seat tube angles. :o)

  • Todd!

    I came from a C50 with Record and I have a sub 6kg Taiwan bike with Sram red and a fair few blingy bits on it.. both nice bikes… but when I first rode the Baum I thought it was a bike that could do anything and every thing… the feeling hasn’t worn off.

    Bombing down hills at 80+km/h and its is as sturdy and as close to pin point accuracy to my steering… riding hard is what it loves most.

    What World Championship title do you have Nic?

  • Anonymous

    The paint scheme is a tribute to this jersey: http://bit.ly/molteni
    The bloke who wore it snagged his in 1967.

  • http://twitter.com/jamespierce James Pierce

    I ride my Baum all year round, I even wash it sometimes, jump it up and down gutters etc. What’s the worst that can happen ? It needs a respray after a while.

  • http://twitter.com/jamespierce James Pierce

    Totally agree Mat, the lack of bike handling skills displayed on Beach Rd is eye popping sometimes. One of the best things you can do to improve your bike handling on a road bike is to start riding a mountain bike. You learn so much about descending, cornering and how much different moving your weight around makes. Too many roadies ride with their arse firmly planted on the saddle in the same spot.

  • Evan Watkins

    When I got my custom, it was made around the idea of fitting very similar to yours. Michael Sylvester at (or is http://bicyclefittingservices.com/) Bike Fitting Services in Portland fit me, and it was probably one of the most eye-opening experiences in my cycling career. The only thing that you didn’t mention, and that is a huge personal pet peeve, is the feet. Crank length and pedal-clip position have huge impacts on bike handling. I know that in general this is done post-build. But it still amazes me looking at the bottom of people’s feet and just saying, “this (point at track oriented clip position), this is why your calves cramp up and your bike feels fidgety on descents.”

    PS Your bikes are very drool-worthy.

  • Notso Swift

    That is pretty much my exact story as well, and it is our balls are smaller when we get “commitments”
    I (obviously) ride a LOOK (which is 6 yo) and they are known for being benign, all day bikes, not too susceptible to fads, despite the fact that I can get to speed faster now (15kg…) previously you would ride that bumps out and be loose, then you get old, you have a scare or two, you get stiff, you get stiff and it feels more nervous, more nervous – get stiffer, viscous circle

  • orrsome153

    Great article. I have been trying to understand all this for years, especially prior to purchasing a new bike. Your article goes a long way to increasing my knowledge of bike geometry. Thanks.

  • Todd!

    Ah, yeah… JB said I had to earn World Champ stripes before he would let me put them on my bike… I wanted it as a tribute to a friend who rides a Baum and was a World Champ…

  • Dominic

    Yeah, and you spelt femur (femer) wrong. Dominic

  • Tony R.

    Thanks for this article Wade and Darren for his input. I am currently helping to design a bit of an all rounder that will have s&s couplings and built locally. The information in this post was very apt for me and has given me confidence that we’re on the right track with my frame.

  • Peter Exner

    My Baum is nude….no paint or clear coat….any scratches can be sanded out….perfect

  • Anonymous

    Brilliant work on this article lads.

    I bet your being conservative saying it took 12hrs to put it together. Thanks for taking the time, it reads very well and is a fantastic educational tool so that riders are thinking about how the bike plays its part in the process of going faster along with fitness and skills.

    Ciao PaT

  • Anonymous

    A fresh pair of eyes always helps, so I’ll do you a deal Wade. If you pr0of read my thesis, I’ll proof read your articles! :P

    (Fascinating post too, worth the 12 h)

  • Tim

    I’m sure a mfr like Baum would have something?

  • http://gtveloce.com/ gtveloce

    I’m not going to disagree with the physics of steering wheeled vehicles, we’ve been making 1, 2, 3 and 4 four wheeled vehicles (and the rest) long enough to sort out how rake, trail and wheelbase influences “handling” and it’s not at all a mystery – but the art and science of it is in the individual compromise achieved. But having owned and raced everything from a Shogun to a Colnago via a Look and a couple of Felts what I can say is that once you get the fit about right you can make a bike – probably any bike – do whatever you want just by moving your body around. You want more traction, shift your weight backwards. Want more steering response, shift your weight forwards. Want to feel more stable in a corner, lower your body. And so on. By all means get the right size bike and adjust it to fit your body shape, but never forget that you are the overwhelmingly greater mass in this equation and where you put your mass matters most! It probably becomes unconscious reflex after 30 years of racing but any bike will feel better once you realise the difference that your dynamic positioning makes.

    It really isn’t (so much) about the bike.

  • http://www.cyclingTipsBlog.com cyclingTips

    I couldn’t agree more @gtveloce. Whenever I take a new bike for a ride and learn now it’s balanced and the ride characteristics of it I simply adjust my riding style and all is good. That said, I have ridden bikes before that “feel” wonderful from the moment I take my first pedal. That’s a very personal thing though.

  • Stu

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  • http://lugstolightweights.cc/2011/03/01/geometry-and-bike-handling-a-link-to-an-cyclingtips-article/ Geometry and Bike Handling: A Link To An @cyclingtips Article | Lugs To Lightweights

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  • Mad Marsupial

    I am in the process of getting a new custom steel bike and the discussion and the decision with the designer about what geometry features to include has been quite lengthy.

    Current bikes are an alloy Cannondale CAAD9 (now my back up) and a custom Baum Romano Ti. The Baum has the longer chain stays and lower BB that Darren was talking about. I like them both, but each has something about it that stands out. The Baum descends more comfortably, but I think the proportions of the front triangle on the C’dale might be a bit better for my ever-changing bike fit.

    New bike will be a bit of a blend of these two existing ones with the aim of making a bike that will be comfortable on an all day ride (think Alpine Classic, a tour in Switzerland). It will have the chainstays and BB drop of the Baum, but the taller headtube and same angles (seattube, headtube) of the Cannondale. The choice of tubing will hopefully help to make it comfortable, beautiful and long lasting (Columbus xCr).

    Hopefully I don’t end up with a camel (ie ‘a horse designed by committee)!

  • néant

    This is a really interesting, helpful article. I like that you point out the fact that, contrary to widespread opinion, especially among the track-bike-on-the-streets crowd (which crowd I happen to belong to), many track bikes (though certainly not all) are relatively slow-handling (although saying they have “very slow steering,” as you do above, strikes me as a little hyperbolic). There seems to be an entire army of kids today who endlessly pat themselves on the back about the “twitchy,” “aggressive” geometry of their keirin frames, failing to realize that with 75 degree head tube angles and 28mm of rake on their forks, they have higher-trail bikes than most roadies.

    That said, I find your section on bottom bracket drop to be a little confused/confusing, and I’m wondering if you might clarify a little. If I’m understanding correctly, you’re saying that the higher a bottom bracket a bike has, the slower “rear end steering,” as you call it, becomes. And this needs to be complemented by a slower front end, meaning more trail. So a smart frame designer will try to avoid both a frame design with a low bottom bracket and high trail (fast rear end, slow front end) and one with a high bottom bracket and low trail (slow rear end, fast front end). Optimally, then, bikes with high bottom brackets (slow rear ends) should have longer trail (slower front ends), and vice versa. Is this right?

    I’m having a little trouble with this claim that lower bottom bracket height = more responsive rear end. You say something vague about this being the result of a lower center of gravity, but it’s not very clear how a lower center of gravity translates into greater rear end responsiveness. If anything, it seems intuitively like the reverse would be true: the higher my center of gravity, the more small adjustments in my balance will affect the way the bike is leaning (which I gather is the means by which you “steer the bike with your backside,” as you put it). Furthermore, you also say that a lower center of gravity makes the rear end “more stable.” Generally, when people talk about front end geometry, responsiveness and stability are characterized as inverse to one another: more responsive frames are less stable and less responsive frames are more stable. Since you claim that a lower bottom bracket leads to both greater responsiveness and more stability, it seems as if you’re saying that the relationship between these parameters somehow goes from an inverse one to a direct one when it comes to rear end geometry. If so, how and why? Finally, I just don’t find it empirically to be the case that high bottom bracket = slow handling. As I mentioned before, I’m a member of the track-bikes-on-the-street brigade, and I’ve had a number of frames with bottom bracket drop as short as 50mm. I’ve never noticed any sort of slowness or lack of responsiveness in the rear end of these bikes. As a matter of fact, I have a frame now with a 50mm bb drop and a short 54mm of trail–a perfect example of the kind of frame you seem to be suggesting will feel “awkward.” It, in fact, handles beautifully. Of course, I can’t comment on its stability in descents, since, seeing as how it’s a fixed gear, I never get going too terribly fast downhill. But in terms of steering, it’s extremely responsive. So I guess I’m just wondering if you can say anything more precise about why a lower bottom bracket is supposed to be both more responsive and more stable than a higher one, and why, aside from the vague suggestion of “awkwardness,” high bottom brackets shouldn’t be paired with low-trail front ends and vice versa.

    These few criticisms aside, thanks very much for a great article. It was quite informative and, it goes without saying, a little provocative.

  • http://twitter.com/vectorbug grayson smith

    Anecdotal but I read the other week that the less weight on the front of the bike, the more susceptible one is to speed wobble. By that logic, a higher handlebar, the less weight.

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