Are All Carbon Bikes Created Equal?

the fearmongering by the retail sector around unbranded chinese frames is hilarious. where are all the catastrophic failures?

the fearmongering by the retail sector around unbranded chinese frames is hilarious. where are all the catastrophic failures?

I saw a horrible photo on a cycling blog a few weeks ago of a cheap frame that had been ridden once and broken, i’ll see if I can find it again…

It’s great that mag’s like “Ride Review” have created test rigs to provide hard data for their reviews of new bikes, rather than the old subjective test-ride reports like, ”feels stiff”. Or should I say ”as well as” rider subjective reports, because we all ride bike on the road, not on test rigs. I also like their mechanic’s reports that study the care and detail of the manufacturing.
But to the point- I do accept all you’re saying about research and quality control, but I’d be interested to see one of these no-name YS bikes put through the same testing as the more established names and see the real evidence.

It’s great that mag’s like “Ride Review” have created test rigs to provide hard data for their reviews of new bikes, rather than the old subjective test-ride reports like, ”feels stiff”. Or should I say ”as well as” rider subjective reports, because we all ride bike on the road, not on test rigs. I also like their mechanic’s reports that study the care and detail of the manufacturing.
But to the point- I do accept all you’re saying about research and quality control, but I’d be interested to see one of these no-name YS bikes put through the same testing as the more established names and see the real evidence.

It’s great that mag’s like “Ride Review” have created test rigs to provide hard data for their reviews of new bikes, rather than the old subjective test-ride reports like, ”feels stiff”. Or should I say ”as well as” rider subjective reports, because we all ride bike on the road, not on test rigs. I also like their mechanic’s reports that study the care and detail of the manufacturing.
But to the point- I do accept all you’re saying about research and quality control, but I’d be interested to see one of these no-name YS bikes put through the same testing as the more established names and see the real evidence.

Nope, can’t find it :( but it was nasty, snapped fork steerer…

Nope, can’t find it :( but it was nasty, snapped fork steerer…

Nope, can’t find it :( but it was nasty, snapped fork steerer…

there are plenty of catastrophic failures of ‘genuine’ frames too, many of which are refused warranty ‘oh it looks like you crashed it’ – yeah i crashed it… after the thing snapped in half! i have personally had warranty declined on 3 separate occasions by very very large and well known brands. the brands that the sales staff  tell you have great warranty and support to back up their great research and development.

there are plenty of catastrophic failures of ‘genuine’ frames too, many of which are refused warranty ‘oh it looks like you crashed it’ – yeah i crashed it… after the thing snapped in half! i have personally had warranty declined on 3 separate occasions by very very large and well known brands. the brands that the sales staff  tell you have great warranty and support to back up their great research and development.

that will never happen, there is no way a magazine would run a test and say an unbranded frame is perfectly fine and that you should spend $400 on a frame rather than $5000. they would never see another advertising dollar from the big brands.

the problems i see (and you can read about them on the RBR forum for example) are that people who have never really ridden a bike, let alone assembled one, are buying cheap frames and building them up as their 1st decent bike. they are cracking seat tubes when they clamp the front mech on too tight, hammering star nuts into carbon steerers, running 100m of spacers under the stem, SANDING DOWN THE STEERER TUBES TO FIT THE CROWN RACE! and so on… and they wonder why they have issues. when these people have frame failures they are blaming the frames when in actual fact it is their heavy handed butcher job assembly which is the issue and would cause the same problems on any major brand frame. rant over :)

Great article! There are so many myths surrounding the production of carbon frames in Asia.
 
Having seen some of the factories myself, I honestly have no problems riding an Asian made frame. There are some seriously impressive facilities over there.

Great article! There are so many myths surrounding the production of carbon frames in Asia.
 
Having seen some of the factories myself, I honestly have no problems riding an Asian made frame. There are some seriously impressive facilities over there.

cynic…
but you’re probably right.

Yes, I saw that image along with the story that was written by the owner of the website (NOT the owner of the frame).

 As greaser points out, fearmongering by retailer/brands is hilarious. With respect to Raoul & CT, this is a well written piece by somebody with an agenda (selling Malvern Star), delivered through a website with an agenda (seeking to be seen in a positive light by CT advertisers).

Oh dear, not an un-branded product in sight. . .

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

Oh dear, not an un-branded product in sight. . .

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

http://fuckyeahcycling.tumblr.com/post/8552322720/psa-dont-buy-cheap-carbon-frames-off-of-ebay

http://fuckyeahcycling.tumblr.com/post/8552322720/psa-dont-buy-cheap-carbon-frames-off-of-ebay

Good article I have spent time on many mtb & road forums explaining why a No Name CF frame has 1. no way to determine quality & testing, 2. no comeback if you were to sue as a result of becoming a Quadriplegic for example due to catastrophic failure.  On the other hand there are plenty of ‘failed’ branded CF products around (do search on Google) or http://www.bustedcarbon.com/.

And if you look closely at Pinarello copies it maybe that the factory is knocking off copies from ‘real’ molds thus frame is up to spec to a certain extent.  I ride too hard and aggressively at times to risk a No Name brand, I just hope I never see or hear of the day when one of these frames fails at speed. 

Good article I have spent time on many mtb & road forums explaining why a No Name CF frame has 1. no way to determine quality & testing, 2. no comeback if you were to sue as a result of becoming a Quadriplegic for example due to catastrophic failure.  On the other hand there are plenty of ‘failed’ branded CF products around (do search on Google) or http://www.bustedcarbon.com/.

And if you look closely at Pinarello copies it maybe that the factory is knocking off copies from ‘real’ molds thus frame is up to spec to a certain extent.  I ride too hard and aggressively at times to risk a No Name brand, I just hope I never see or hear of the day when one of these frames fails at speed. 

A comment of fear mongering at its best!

I’ve been lucky enough to chat with Raoul a few times and he has a wealth of knowledge on the subject of carbon and manufacturing.

There is no ‘agenda’ give the post some credit for what it deserves.

Thanks Raoul for your insight.

I’m sure Raoul knows his stuff. I didn’t querstion Raoul’s technical knowledge.

BillyBuster, I understand why you might think there is an agenda at play, but let me assure you that it took me many months of trying to Raoul to sit down with me and explain all of this. He’s a very busy man and has no need to sell any Malvern Stars. He was contracted to design the Oppy. I simply stated it so that I could put some credentials to his name. I challenge anyone to find me a carbon fiber bike expert who is not somehow involved in the industry.

BillyBuster, I understand why you might think there is an agenda at play, but let me assure you that it took me many months of trying to Raoul to sit down with me and explain all of this. He’s a very busy man and has no need to sell any Malvern Stars. He was contracted to design the Oppy. I simply stated it so that I could put some credentials to his name. I challenge anyone to find me a carbon fiber bike expert who is not somehow involved in the industry.

There seems to be a problem arising from a lack of connection. At some stage we were able to put a face to the person constructing the frame we rode. This has been a thing of the past for most frames for many years. It seems that this disconnect has been extended in recent years to the point where even reputable brands have products that bear little resemblance to their reputation, the Colnago Arte is an early product that comes to mind. This is further exacerbated by the fact that many new consumers have little idea about the language of bicycles and would find it hard to distinguish one product from another. Simple factors like price are some giveaway although there are excellent products that are very cheap and many consumers would find it difficult to split the components from the frame in the pricing. Without getting into the same area as the helmet debate, it does seem odd that we have a virtually unregulated safety policy on a vehicle that travels at speed on our roads.

There seems to be a problem arising from a lack of connection. At some stage we were able to put a face to the person constructing the frame we rode. This has been a thing of the past for most frames for many years. It seems that this disconnect has been extended in recent years to the point where even reputable brands have products that bear little resemblance to their reputation, the Colnago Arte is an early product that comes to mind. This is further exacerbated by the fact that many new consumers have little idea about the language of bicycles and would find it hard to distinguish one product from another. Simple factors like price are some giveaway although there are excellent products that are very cheap and many consumers would find it difficult to split the components from the frame in the pricing. Without getting into the same area as the helmet debate, it does seem odd that we have a virtually unregulated safety policy on a vehicle that travels at speed on our roads.

http://www.bamboobikes.com.au/2010/10/18/bamboo-bike-frame-strength-test/

Do as MR Bamboo Bikes here in Oz has done. Test it yourself. Definitely not as comprehensive as the big brands but it would give that little bit of peace of mind required!

http://www.bamboobikes.com.au/2010/10/18/bamboo-bike-frame-strength-test/

Do as MR Bamboo Bikes here in Oz has done. Test it yourself. Definitely not as comprehensive as the big brands but it would give that little bit of peace of mind required!

Raoul’s business is actually repairing carbon. Therefore his assumed motive would perhaps lay on the other side of the fence…? 

 I have some Yishun wheels. I’m no pro so can’t comment on the finer details of handling & performance that someone racing & riding 1000 clicks a week might be able to. But the wheels I have are great, sold build, responsive & accelerate quickly. I travel to China & if you can identify a company that is serious about delivering great product & protecting their brand you will be fine. Most of them get how damaging a blog can be they have every reason to deliver great product.

And yeah you are totally paying for fancy stickers to hold the carbon together when you are buying a brand. By the time the product gets through 2-3 sets of hands before the shop floor each one whacking 200-200% margin.

If distributors & retailers pulled their heads in & got realistic about how much someone can drop on carbon wheels they would sell a lot more.

I would love to be loyal to a brand if they gave me a good price point & reason to be. Sadly that’s not the case here.

I should also note that I have absolutely no experience with Yishun Bike company and Kevin is probably a very nice bloke.

I dunno about your second assertion Billy, because it’s way unfounded. Spotted a paid ad yet? Nope, because if you read this blog more than just today you’d know that CT knocks back that sort of stuff every day.

You can only really write about what you know (and ride). Seems to me that’s what he always does and is saying here.

When I read “you want a good degree of confidence that your bike has been engineered properly and quality tested to comply with standards. There are plenty of people out there who have bought one of these inexpensive no-name bikes and haven’t had any problems with them, but you simply don’t know what process they’ve gone through and there is no way to find it out”, I didn’t take it as a paid ad. Sensible more likely.

What you claim is scaremongering, is just people questioning their own health and safety (no offence, but I take mine seriously and aren’t willing to listen to you or anyone else posting on the net about it).

We all know the ‘standards’ that many Chinese products have (don’t have), and the only way to get a decent product is to test it and apply your own standards. ie. Australian standards, Australian testing, etc.

The same goes for helmets, pharmaceuticals, kids toys, etc. Feel free to test and apply our standards to all products, not just the brand name. Until then, I’ll stick to what I believe and can rely on. You, on the other hand are more than welcome to scoff at the people wanting products safety tested, have our own standards applied. etc.  

Given that carbon is not a guaranteed product, and ‘brand name’ frames are sold at a far higher rate, I’m thinking the evidence (or just examples of random people posting pics on the net) of busted carbon frames being ‘brand names’ is not exactly telling us much. I’d argue the agenda from those claiming it’s all a conspiracy by the big names to make us pay more, is an agenda in itself (most likely to dumb down our standards and expectations of quality, safety, etc. in order to somehow feel better about yourself).

Not defending CT, just saying you’re wrong.

we should have a blog entry about which big name companies tell you they have great warranty and support but dont actually provide adequate warranty or after sales support.

I had the carbon seat stays ( B-stays) on a Colnago crack just outside the warranty period.  Frame wasn’t raced and I’m not a lard arse… Was quoted by Colnago $1300 to repair !!! Crap happens …

My Colnago EPS, hand made in Italy is the best, everything else is crap, so take that! :-P

My Colnago EPS, hand made in Italy is the best, everything else is crap, so take that! :-P

My Colnago EPS, hand made in Italy is the best, everything else is crap, so take that! :-P

This brings to mind that ancient proverb…

        You can’t make chicken soup from chicken shit…

This brings to mind that ancient proverb…

        You can’t make chicken soup from chicken shit…

This brings to mind that ancient proverb…

        You can’t make chicken soup from chicken shit…

This brings to mind that ancient proverb…

        You can’t make chicken soup from chicken shit…

Assuming both branded and un-branded frames break equally often, who cares if you can replace the broken branded frame, for $400 a pop for an un-branded product, you can break 10 of them and still be ahead as far as your wallet is concerned. If you’re alive that is. I ride a 15yo aluminium, does exactly the same thing as any carbon frame.

Assuming both branded and un-branded frames break equally often, who cares if you can replace the broken branded frame, for $400 a pop for an un-branded product, you can break 10 of them and still be ahead as far as your wallet is concerned. If you’re alive that is. I ride a 15yo aluminium, does exactly the same thing as any carbon frame.

Just a question Dave, what extent of ‘seeing’ factories do you mean? If you mean you saw them testing, etc. at the factories then that’s fine, but just lots of big ovens, production lines, etc. doesn’t answer my question about quality.

My take on this is that I want standards and testing. I’m willing to pay thousands of dollars for that, because the lack of standards and testing simply isn’t worth my health. As I understand it, the Taiwanese frames have those standards and testing.

The myths surrounding carbon frames from China would be solved if they tested and had the same standards (I just don’t personally believe most claims from Chinese manufacturers, eBay sellers, etc.).

I can say that in my experiance Malvern Star are very good. I have an Oppy C6, after 3 weeks I noticed some cracking in the non drive side chain stay, took it to the LBS. Turns out it was just in the clear coat itself, not the frame. But the frame was replaced regardless, had a new frame later that week.

Sorry for being off topic, but thought it relevant.

I’m not sure the assumption that branded and un-branded frames break equally often is true. I’m not saying it isn’t true (I don’t know), but I personally feel more comfortable buying a frame and components that comply to Australian, European or North American standards. 

would you feel comfortable buying a pegoretti frame?

 In the interest of fairness, maybe you could do a follow-up piece on these unkown brand manufacturers and their manufacturing processes, Q.A etc? Or what a piece that unmasks which ‘Italian’ frames or uber-expensive apparel brands *cough! Rapha* are made in Asia?

I recently built a HongFu carbon road frame with a mate, it’s his bike, no mine.  I was quite impressed with the fit and finish of the frame and he is very happy with the how it rides.  This article said many times, “you just don’t know”..and I think that sums it up well.  A catastrophic failure can happen with any bike, and to say it’s more likely to happen to a Chinese carbon frame is unsubstantiated at this time.  As more and more rack up some miles we’ll get a better indication.  What these frames do tell us is that it really doesn’t cost much to produce a frame, the real cost comes from business overhead (marketing, sales, design, and so forth).  And for fearmongering, well most of us wouldn’t blink (or even know) if some pimply faced youth rebuilt your wheels at a bike shop, yet we’d still bomb down a decent at 80km/h on them.  I also think these frame builders in Asia are just as capable as a small frame builder who welds tubes together in a garage or small shop.  What I don’t know about these Chinese frames is how they ride, are the stiff enough?  Comparing a Giant XTC Composite to a Trek/GF Superfly is hard enough, throw in a no name brand frame and it gets more puzzling.  What if they are nearly as good?  What if you have to be riding at a pro/semi-pro level to feel the difference?  Again, who knows? 

Pegoretti only makes steel frames with Columbus tubing. This is different than carbon fiber (the tubset IS the standard). He’s made frames Indurain, Pantani, Roche, Cipollini, Tafi and many others. Unfortunately I would never be able to afford a Pegoretti.

Would I buy an unknown Pegoreppi from Vietnam? Not a chance  ;-)

pegoretti frames are not standards tested though

Unlike steel and aluminium(which are isotropic materials -same strength/stiffness in all directions) Carbon is anisotropic -meaning the strength/stiffness varies in different directions thru the material.
For example if you have a layer of carbon uni’s (all the fibres in one direction) the strength/stiffness along the fibres is massive BUT perpendicular to the fibre direction the strength/stiffness is virtually nil.

 To build a good frame you need to have the right mix of fibre orientations (and enough fibre in the right place), fibre type, mixture of woven carbon fabric and uni carbons for different  loadings, the right resin content and a suitable material thickness to deal with compression loads etc etc.
All the above  (laminate design)is critical to building a strong/stiff/light carbon frame and it rely’s on ALOT of hard won knowledge know-how and testing. You can’t tell much about how a bike is built from the outside (or how good the laminate design is)

The fibre placement and orientation becomes even more critical when you start building with ultra high modulus carbon (stiffer carbon) as you are using even less (of a stiffer)material to build the frame.

A frame built out of asia  can be as good as one built anywhere else in the world as long as there is engineering/laminate design/testing/quality assurance experience there to back up the manufacturing.

A mob that builds carbon tennis racquets would be able to build a frame that looks like a shiny carbon frame BUT without the proper engineering behind it, it could quickly become a mass of useless carbon splinters.

Also worth noting (cause of most failures)
Carbon doesn’t deal well with impact loads or high point loads (like conventional seat clamps done up too tight).

I hope my rant was interesting and (mostly)correct.

Go to the Weightweenies forum and check out the Chinarello thread

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90693&hilit=chinarello&start=15

Couple of good examples of failures, seems to me that failures happen early, or they don’t happen at all (bar crash damage)
I do think that the risks are over stated a bit, any one with a doubt just needs to go a look at the “branded” failures at  http://www.bustedcarbon.com/ doesn’t look so good for those big boys there.

That said, Wade is right top composite engineering is not an Anglo/Euro domain, it is actually the domain of men in white coats from ALL countries, it is the provenance of their training that you are looking for. So just buy a Time, they actaully weave their own carbon from scratch (and get it right)
I also think there is a bit to much reliance (by marketing) on the carbon grade oooh it is T700 so it must be good, when it the glue (resin) that will be the key indicator over a long term. As consumers we don’t know if they use prepreg, straight resin, if it is a good one or if they use clag

I don’t know that either (I would like to though). I simply had a quick look at bastedcarbon site and didn’t see any un-branded frames (or other carbon parts for that matter).

[...] Originally posted here: Are All Carbon Bikes Created Equal? [...]

I totally understand where you’re coming from, Abdu. I’m pretty much in the same boat.

The issue arises when people (the manufacturer, a dodgy distributor, etc.) realise the profit that can be made selling these products. Every process they eliminate equates to more margin for them. And with the sort of quanitites we’re talking about this makes a massive difference.

Believe me, all of these manufacturers have the potential to test the materials and manufacture products to Australian Standards. Heck, I saw a quality lab for a company that makes little keys for locks testing with a spectrometer, vibration rig, dust chamber, etc….crazy. But why would they waste the money if nobody specifies it?

Hey, stop knocking Chinese Toys, Lead is a valuable additive that children need more of in their diets!
And Toothpaste just isn’t the same without that anti-freeze zing in your mouth ;-p

i wouldn’t buy a chinese made frame and i also wouldn’t buy no name wheels or rebranded no name wheels like bouwmeesters – the quality from china is not there.

It is informative, yes. Question is though, how risky is it to buy an un-branded frame? I think the answer is right there in the post – you just don’t know. BUT, considering how cheap these frames are, one might take a shot at it, why not? So far, most stories abut these $400 frames are positive, they last a year or two (typical life span of a modern frame), then get thrown away and another one is bought. 

I think this has to do with the fact that millions of branded bikes are sold every year. Even a fraction of a percentage of failures will results in lots of breakages. 

If it were me and I bought a $400 no-name frame and it snapped on me, I’d want to keep that to myself and not show the entire world on some website.

i would definately show the entire world

I should also say something about Chinese “quality”
My next door neighbour owns a glass factory in China, structual stuff that isused to build skyscrapers and all custom. none of his product comes to Australia because he is flat out supplying the Asian markets, mainly Singapore and Malaysia as well as some Chinese Domestic.
Some thing he told me, though, is to build things with skilled labour, to international standards like he does it is not that much cheaper, indeed he said he would only be maybe 10% cheaper than local stuff in Australia, and he believed the locals like G James would have that and more in margin. for him it is a moot point because he has a market, but if he were to rely on Australia, it would not be worth his time. He also has a company that imports industrial cooking equipment, that has littlel local competition and the margins are apparently definately worth it.

The “cheap” Chinese quality is usually slaped together by farm hands that have moved to the cities with no training or skill, but people with training and skills “can” produce world class product, and it is no longer cheap as a consequence.

You’re right, there are, compared to branded frames, only a handful of these news frames out there. Time will tell I guess who’s doing what. I have a suspicion though that those “what sticker would you like on your frame” dudes will win.

I’ve been away, … that reminds me, what happened to the Boras?

The best carbon frame is a steel frame. 

The best carbon frame is a steel frame. 

“ I’d argue the agenda from those claiming it’s all a conspiracy by the big names to make us pay more, is an agenda in itself”  Wake up and smell the panties Abdu, it’s not new news that cyclists here in AU are ripped off blind.  My annoyance is more about feeling like a nob for bowing to the pressure (and paying through the nose) to have the ‘right’ brand bike/accessories/kit. I think a lot of people get defensive when there read about this stuff because they are offended to read their EuroPRO dream stuff is actually Asian.

And to your point about taking safety seriously. If safety really is your major objection, why would you ride at all?

the ‘newspaper’ they claim is in the steerer is actually part of the air bladder used in the construction of the fork. all carbon forks are manufactured this way.

or that great Aussie proverb about polishing a turd?

Lee – I wonder about all the Chinese manufacturers…not..delivering great product or protecting their brand, how fine are we then?

I don’t travel to China, nor do I have the time to identify as company that does deliver a great product and protect their brand there. What I can do is check the testing and Australian standards for the item and read a review in a local bike magazine. I can even test ride it myself here in a shop.

Loyalty on the basis of price is nonsense too, think about it. Someone I know cracked their Wilier frame last year and got that replaced by the distributor here, that generates loyalty in my eyes.  

I really oppose the negative, brand bashing blogs that inevitably drive everyone to the lowest standards. Manufacturers should be aiming for better quality (add to that politicians and most other things) rather than we all chase the lowest common denominator, fighting for the bottom. In my eyes, there’s a limit to how much I should chase price down, I prefer to chase quality and service up. It’s funny, but you can mention a free open market economy and get howled down by many about what it does to our community, society, standards, etc. and yet the same people are the ones wanting to buy a chinese import that comes from that situation.

Inevitably there will be an equilibrium, just like the LBS vs. the internet, the onus is on the LBS to provide good service and advice, an ability for me to actually try something on for size, etc. The internet sellers can’t do that. In this case, I choose standards and quality in my bikes which a no-name import frame can’t or won’t do either.

old but still true article, must be updated because for example 100% Pinarello frames, yes also your Dogma, is made in CHINA
http://www.italiaoutdoors.com/outdoor-instructor-taking-care-of-your-gear/290-equipment-bike-compaines.html

Who belives that a brand is a guarantee of safety is blind or very easily “instructed”: 99% of nowadays carbon frames come from China and/or Taiwan, of course from different builders, but probably not so many.

There are plenty of forums about “no logo” frames, the main ones on Roadbikereviews but also specific for countries (for example: magicady.forumup.it). What a surprise to find out that these frames don’t explode.

And about people easily joking about chinese low quality, well, look around now and find something that is NOT coming from there….look down to your expansive shoes too ;)

This debate is very much like the one of buying a bike online or from your LBS.  Sure you’ll probably save a few $$$ up front, but what happens if you need to claim warranty?  What about getting a proper fit? Not too mention ensuring everything is properly torqued to the manufacturers specifications? Oh and how many home mechanics actually have a torque wrench?

Anyone who is spending the cash to ride a carbon fibre framed bike is likely to ride it hard and expect their bike to perform.  Serious riders (or should I say racers?) run very close to the edge.  The tolerance between success and failure is very thin; with almost no margin for error.  How fast you can descend; how hard you can take a corner; how hard can I mash the pedals?  This is all based on confidence.  You need to have confidence in your abilities, the riders around you, and most importantly the machine you are riding.  Before buying, and then riding *ANY* piece of equipment you have to ask yourself: ”How confident am I this will perform and not fail me?”

This is essentially the point CT is trying to make: “Buyer beware”

Just because it’s cheap and looks and smells the same as the brand name ask yourself this question:
“How much confidence can I place in this product; am I willing to bet my life on it?”

Yeh, you’ve got to do something while in hospital I guess…

I had Specialized frames before, and I just bought my 4th “no brand”: these feels better in many ways (eg lateral BB stiffness). I’m not biased in any way as I prefer to keep these prices as low as possible (if they became “famous”, they sell more and prices will raise ;) )
From what can be worth, I’m not a Sunday biker, my average is 15-17000km/year

“What these frames do tell us is that it really doesn’t cost much to
produce a frame, the real cost comes from business overhead (marketing,
sales, design, and so forth)”= totally agree on this and it’s a focal point.
Carbon is/was a HUGE business for big names= delocate the production to Asian coutnries, sometimes leaving at home (=jobless) your more expansive and with more “rights” local workers,  and in the mean time pushing the market to appreciate carbon instead of other materials=> larger income.  These no name frames are just a consequence, a spin off,  of this process.

Most of the times you just buy heritage, history and, most of all, marketing.

I had Specialized frames before, and I just bought my 4th “no brand”: these feels better in many ways (eg lateral BB stiffness). I’m not biased in any way as I prefer to keep these prices as low as possible (if they became “famous”, they sell more and prices will raise ;) )
From what can be worth, I’m not a Sunday biker, my average is 15-17000km/year

“What these frames do tell us is that it really doesn’t cost much to
produce a frame, the real cost comes from business overhead (marketing,
sales, design, and so forth)”= totally agree on this and it’s a focal point.
Carbon is/was a HUGE business for big names= delocate the production to Asian coutnries, sometimes leaving at home (=jobless) your more expansive and with more “rights” local workers,  and in the mean time pushing the market to appreciate carbon instead of other materials=> larger income.  These no name frames are just a consequence, a spin off,  of this process.

Most of the times you just buy heritage, history and, most of all, marketing.

and the best steel frame is titanium…with nice little welds and a tag with the name of the guy that did them…and a photo of him on the website so I can fully buy the illusion. 

Post-modernity hasn’t made it to bike land…where Italy is a country populated by swarthy men who weld columbus and China is the land of the bad. Regardless, I don’t want post-modernism when I am riding.

Abdu – yes I am lucky enough to make an educated decision when buying direct from a manufacturer. But it doesn’t take anymore or less time to research, read about & find a good manufacturer. About the same amount of time it takes to travel to a LBS, test, shop around & negotiate your purchase. Its just personal preference.

Unfortunately price drives loyalty. You throw good service & a quality product in the mix & your a winner. My post did say a good price point & ‘reason to be’ loyal. In reality Australian retailers across the board just havn’t got the mix right & there is so much inconsistency out there its makes this argument a bit of a merry go round. Most people will assess the above & decide if what they are buying is worth the premium they need to pay compared to another supplier. They do this either online or offline, buyers are well educated on the dangers of their purchase decisions.

EG. My Wilier cracked last year too & I got burned by the experience. Will I buy another Wilier, ah no.

I’ve been the full circle with online, offline, the good, the bad, the real ugly & in the end its all swings & round abouts. Not one manufacturer, retailer or distributor gave me any reason to be 100% loyal.

Just goes to show how difficult it is to get the mix right & influence peoples buying decisions consistently enough to build a great brand.

Abdu – yes I am lucky enough to make an educated decision when buying direct from a manufacturer. But it doesn’t take anymore or less time to research, read about & find a good manufacturer. About the same amount of time it takes to travel to a LBS, test, shop around & negotiate your purchase. Its just personal preference.

Unfortunately price drives loyalty. You throw good service & a quality product in the mix & your a winner. My post did say a good price point & ‘reason to be’ loyal. In reality Australian retailers across the board just havn’t got the mix right & there is so much inconsistency out there its makes this argument a bit of a merry go round. Most people will assess the above & decide if what they are buying is worth the premium they need to pay compared to another supplier. They do this either online or offline, buyers are well educated on the dangers of their purchase decisions.

EG. My Wilier cracked last year too & I got burned by the experience. Will I buy another Wilier, ah no.

I’ve been the full circle with online, offline, the good, the bad, the real ugly & in the end its all swings & round abouts. Not one manufacturer, retailer or distributor gave me any reason to be 100% loyal.

Just goes to show how difficult it is to get the mix right & influence peoples buying decisions consistently enough to build a great brand.

“I choose standards and quality in my bikes which a no-name import frame can’t or won’t do either. ” But how do you know the no-name product isn’t manufactured by one of the major industry players (Giant, Merida)? From what I understand, the manufacturers have done what the rest of the world has done. Opened manufacturing facilities in China!

“I choose standards and quality in my bikes which a no-name import frame can’t or won’t do either. ” But how do you know the no-name product isn’t manufactured by one of the major industry players (Giant, Merida)? From what I understand, the manufacturers have done what the rest of the world has done. Opened manufacturing facilities in China!

Your argument that “cyclists in AU are ripped off blind” has pretty much nothing to do with this article. 

Wade’s point is that if there is any difference between “name frames” and “unbranded” models”, it is simply unknown because the unbranded models haven’t gone through Australian Standards testing. So that “unknown” is the risk of buying those products and caveat emptor applies

I think your comment that this is a website with an agenda is more than a little offensive.

Better companies use wax, it gives a more even pressure, then the melt it out after curing
But yes, some of the claims on the net are …let;’s say ill-informed… just wanted greaser to see the pictures

I would welcome that. Would you or anyone else volunteer to do that post? My evil advertising agenda may get in the way of me being objective. I’ll put you in touch with Kevin from the Yishun Bike company:

Xia Men Yishun Industry&trading Co., Ltd
email [email protected]           
[email protected]   
[email protected]
Skype kevinbike007
Tel:+86-592-5620078
Fax:+86-592-5620028
Company website: www.yishunbike.com
After service: [email protected]

Good post CT.  No idea where all the scaremongering talk came from.

The whole argument comes down to how risk adverse a rider is.  When you buy a big name brand, of course you are shelling out more for the sticker, the marketing, “coolness” factor and hype.  But you’re also paying for what’s behind that sticker, the warranty, reputation and the level of quality control.  I don’t know for a fact that a cheap ebay frame fails more often than a big name brand, its entirely possible they don’t, but I make the assumption that a big company’s reputation is important enough to them to ensure that the reverse isn’t true.  If that makes me very risk adverse, so be it.

Plus, maybe the coolness factor is worth it.

Me thinks slowboat from China.

Good article CT – very similar issues to the snowboard industry.

The catcalls and jeering and smackdown from the Euros (Elan factory) and US (Mervins etc) was deafening but Burton, Ride, K2 etc all have super high end machinery making and testing boards to high standards (profit can be reinvested in the sport).

There’s nothing like the warm fuzzies we get from owning a hand made masterpiece (be it a Time, a Glissade or Heresy snowboard, or whatever it is) but there’s also nothing wrong with Taiwanese mfing.

Remember when made in Japan was not a mark (and marque) of quality (when made in the US was, how times have changed) but now we look at Made in Japan as a mark as something high end, to be coveted, now.

In my experience, a piece of cr#p is a piece of cr#p; whether it be Italian made, Chinese made, or Australian made.

But, that’s why it’s good to get these inside-knowledge articles and to reveal the brands that care, and do it right, and those that don’t, no matter where in the world they manufacture.

Good article CT – very similar issues to the snowboard industry.

The catcalls and jeering and smackdown from the Euros (Elan factory) and US (Mervins etc) was deafening but Burton, Ride, K2 etc all have super high end machinery making and testing boards to high standards (profit can be reinvested in the sport).

There’s nothing like the warm fuzzies we get from owning a hand made masterpiece (be it a Time, a Glissade or Heresy snowboard, or whatever it is) but there’s also nothing wrong with Taiwanese mfing.

Remember when made in Japan was not a mark (and marque) of quality (when made in the US was, how times have changed) but now we look at Made in Japan as a mark as something high end, to be coveted, now.

In my experience, a piece of cr#p is a piece of cr#p; whether it be Italian made, Chinese made, or Australian made.

But, that’s why it’s good to get these inside-knowledge articles and to reveal the brands that care, and do it right, and those that don’t, no matter where in the world they manufacture.

When I was buying my first carbon bike, one of the larger Melbourne bike dealers was advertising a house-branded all-carbon bike with full Ultegra and Aksiums for something like 2 grand. 

I went and had a look at the bike.

While you obviously can’t tell whether the frame was any good or not, the manufacturing quality of the finishing kit (saddle, seatpost, bars and so on) was as rough as guts, obviously compromised to meet the price point.

If they’re prepared to use the cheapest bit of tat they could find for the saddles and so on without any regard for quality, I could only assume that they selected the frames on the same basis.

Maybe it’s a perfectly solid frame.  Maybe it isn’t.  Either way, I wasn’t going to take the punt.

I think the point is more than steel alloys behave in predictable ways.  If a steel frame uses Columbus Spirit and the welds are good (and I can see that with eyes) then I have an idea how the bike will perform, subject to the geometry, etc.  I know how thick the steel is, how it behaves and what its properties are.  Same for Reynolds 953 or whatever.  I don’t need the standard, because I can look up the qualities of the material for myself.

Carbon is different.  one cannot see the carbon layup, test the glue or have any idea how thick and or substantive the carbon is, unless one destructively tests the product or has one of those fancy x-ray thingamajigs that Raoul Leuscher uses.  And I simply don’t have one of those lying about in my garage.

as an engineer, i’ve spoken to a few engineer friends with experience in manufacturing, including in asia. you get different takes on this – there’s no doubt that asian manufacturers can be set up to supply at ‘western’ quality standards, but that some are set up as cheap’n'nasty, particularly for the local (largely unregulated) market.

i think Raoul’s response that “You just don’t know…” is probably fair. but is it any different to riding a well-used, 5 year old Colnago carbon frame? or the risk of running over a rock mid-corner while taking a descent at full tilt? in that sense, i agree with many of the comments that for a sport with a healthy(?) dose of inherent risk, there is a lot of fear-mongering going on.

I am a qualified materials engineer and its true that depending how you use the materials will affect the outcome, however, having been to the main manufacturing area of China (Guangzhou) I can say that the quality can vary from amazing to terrible. Given most plasma TV’s, iphones etc are all made there the quality CAN be great, but equally it can be bad. Some ‘factories’ that will provide something that looks great on the outside are simply third world inside, both in the attention to quality and the sill of the operators.

As with most things its buyer beware, if you dont know what your getting then be careful. its also worth noting their are many (perhaps 60%) in some industries that are nothing more than a reseller of other peoples items. You need to know if your dealing with the source or the trader, and unless your in China you often dont know.

As for steel behaving in a known , this is no different to carbon. The only assumption is that you may believe it will fail at welds and joins, but as with any material, depending where the defect are will govern how it behaves, and this can be anywhere. Probably becvasue steel has been around for so long that its considered ‘safer’ than carbon, but try steel from China in 1950′s compared to elsewhere in the world and you will see something that is scary as its brittle as hell (long story but the collective work system screwed Chinese metal manufacture for years)

Luckily i have  Japanese built frame, and so I dont worry about quality coz i know its their :)

How dare you knocked our glorious, victorious nation.

We are the only little pajama wearing nation to defeat the mighty US.

No Pho for you Sir

Not too keen on being a crash test dummy for Kevin …..But would happily provide my services as CT dummy for Rapha. I’m a medium.

Assos made in Romania – Rapha’s from China ? Who cares where it’s made it’s all about design and QC which is what this article is all about anyway. I haven’t got any Rapha gear but I can definitely tell the difference between a cheaper pair of knicks and a more expensive one.

cheers
Jim

There are no catastrophic failures because no-one that I have ever seen rides an un-branded Chinese bike! And if there are any people riding them it would be 100 to 1. 

People making theses comments need to go to one of these Chinese factories and check out quality control, there is none! Its crazy!

Anyway, that said i just bought a bike from cyclingexpress.com. A Verite with a SRAM red groupset. At least those guys are local, give a lifetime warranty and have heaps of positive customer reviews to back up the product. (the Verite frame is the same as the Azzurri Forza which was my last bike.)

I was recently in Hong Kong and stuck my head into a few bike shops over there. I saw on the mechanic’s stand out the back a fake Dogma frame… It looked like a reasonably good mould, however the finish (paint and lacker) was sub-par, not terrible, but just not to the standard of Pinarello.

Eitherway, my point would be, there is a potential of fake Dogmas finding their way onto online retail. It’s amazing what $500 bucks at Paconi can get you.

A good paint job and I doubt you could tell from the photos online

Just to add to this – if anybody knows of some cheaper (price not quality clothing brands) be happy to hear about it.

Wade maybe you can do an article on this ?

There is a perception that carbon does not behave in a predictable manner, if done properly it is very predicable, hence it’s use in aerospace and F1 etc etc, where predictability is critical.
As for welds being good, welding is generally not used in aerospace because it is unpredictable, hence most welded structures are x rayed to ensure a good weld, this includes rail tracks, pipelines, pressure vessels etc. Hence no more welded aluminium stems, too many were failing so now they are forged and machined.

You are correct in saying carbon is different to metals, however there are also many process quality control requirements for metals if they are operating at a high level of performance.

Basically if any material is being used near it’s limit quality control is important and often special equipment is required.

A point of the article is that the buyer does not know what quality control was done. There are also cheap metal frames available online and the same questions need to be asked.

Dear Leader has spoken!!

I knew that comment would wake up the sleeping Vietnames giant.

;-)

Not sure about what your saying here. There was a documentary on a space race between Boeing and Lockeed to build a carbon fighter plain. Several times one of the teams failed in their lay ups because of bubbles. This was discovered through Ultrasound scanning

BTW, I’ve never seen the Australian standard sticker on any of my bikes…….. Maybe I haven’t been looking hard enough

I have done some business with couple of different Chinese frame manufacturers (including the one it the article) and have both had good and bad experiences. But I must admit, due to the low price, it’s worth it. Regarding the standards and the quality – I have heard them all say that the thing they fear the most is somebody breaking the frame, and that’s the reason why most of these noname frames are heavier and bulkier than the branded ones. They put extra material everywhere just to be “safe”. I have tried to talk them into making lighter frames with less material, but they have always been too scared to do that even if I don’t care about  braking the frame or the ride quality… I have also been talking directly to one engineer actually doing the engineering and design (CAD modeling, FEA) and I think they are totally capable of making very good frames. If they sort out the quality control, I see no reason why unbranded “cervelos” or “colnagos” should cost more than 500 USD…

One of the issues with carbon bikes is just how close to the cutting edge they are designed to be. Most of the no-name frames are not aiming for the 700-800g market, and get some increased degree of strength from the sheer volume of material, thickness of the walls etc. Hence they are likely to be less well designed in their geometry and ride quality than to break on you.

I remember that whilst racing track, the first 2 people I met who had Cervelo P3 track frames had broken them (and not in crashes, just normal track riding). I also remember the R2.5, which got recalled. Noone really seemed to care, as the thing that differentiated Cervelo from some others is that people pretty much got a new frame without any questions asked. I have to assume that the odd person actually injured themselves on the way, but it does not seem to have hindered the progress of Cervelo, who are now one of the most esteemed brands in the biz.

I suspect that just like columbus airplane and EOM16.5 from the old days, when you are playing at the pointy end, you will get shorter life spans and the occasional bike that tries to divide into 2 without warning. If you want bulletproof, it is probably not compatible with being the lightest frame on the block. I reckon I could back my car over my BT stealth frame and still ride it, but whilst it is laterally stiff, I am not sure there would be much vertical compliance on the road (if I took it there).

Photo gallery from a Chinarello factory

http://scorpionodessa.io.ua/album406463

seems like some testing is going on?

A good example?
A DeRosa frame made in China is one
http://www.bdc-forum.it/showthread.php?t=121666
As You can read Derosa stated it was always “clear” that some of their frames come from Far East, and that THIS mode for example is not a fake copy but the real “deal” itself

The difference in price is 2x or 3x
Do you feel safer if it’s painted (and controlled after) from DeRosa or with no logo?

how funny, i was talking to raoul today about this topic. you could buy one of his frames for guaranteed quality. it seems he uses a very superior grade of carbon – $600 per kg as opposed to the $40 per kg usually used. You should see the shoes he makes too!!!

5 foot 6 hardly rates as a giant!!

5 foot 6 hardly rates as a giant!!

thats why i ride steel. without a torque meter i wont ruin my frame.

i am and i have. waiting for delivery still but what i am trusting is the small artisan maker and long time tried and tested material as opposed to large manufacturer advertising campaigns and a hit and miss material.

of course, i hace succumbed to a reputation (dario’s) and reviews having not ever actually ridden one but i trust it a hell of a lot more than a picture of a PRO rider on that manufacturers frame in an expensive advert to convince me that is the best frame to buy.

Branding has become the biggest seller now that the mystery factory knocks out 1000 frames a day. honestly, hands up who could do a blind test and tell the difference between a $1000 and $10000 frame

he does use a carbon fork though.

Thanks Marcus, better said than me. I can blunder in sometimes (luckily Lee, etc. don’t take offense). Give people credit here, we don’t need The Gruen Transfer to understand the bulldust we can be fed in marketing and advertising.

My good mate rides a Ducatti, when he knows very well there are faster and more reliable bikes out there. Years ago he drove a car that spent more time in the garage than I do on the couch, and cost a small fortune, but it was a stunner that nearly made me cry like a little girl just by cornering in the rain round Como Park at very high speed one night. He could possibly buy a Kia, or even trick up a Great Wall. He won’t, and I don’t think he’s stupid for that.

On a much much lower scale, I like the crap that goes with enjoying my purchases. I love my bike and the occasional bit of Rapha kit, but don’t think anyone else needs to do so as well. Seriously, I’m not about to sneer at someone else because of their bike or kit. Their choice, my choice.

Safety is relative obviously, but I tell myself I have reduced as many risks as I can. Those risks include knowing that my wheels, frame, etc. are ok, well as much as I can within I reason and Australian standards, etc. I reckon that I (and many I ride with) are far more safety conscious because they are riders. That usually means not taking silly risks, in my case riding on a frame I don’t know anything about.

The argument about chasing cheaper products at any ‘cost’, simply by arguing that we pay too much for ‘the brand’ (marketing bulltish to some), is a much bigger issue for me. I don’t want a 10 year old kid in Asia or India to sleep under his sewing machine in between doing 14 hour shifts just so I can wear the latest Nikes.

Thanks Marcus, better said than me. I can blunder in sometimes (luckily Lee, etc. don’t take offense). Give people credit here, we don’t need The Gruen Transfer to understand the bulldust we can be fed in marketing and advertising.

My good mate rides a Ducatti, when he knows very well there are faster and more reliable bikes out there. Years ago he drove a car that spent more time in the garage than I do on the couch, and cost a small fortune, but it was a stunner that nearly made me cry like a little girl just by cornering in the rain round Como Park at very high speed one night. He could possibly buy a Kia, or even trick up a Great Wall. He won’t, and I don’t think he’s stupid for that.

On a much much lower scale, I like the crap that goes with enjoying my purchases. I love my bike and the occasional bit of Rapha kit, but don’t think anyone else needs to do so as well. Seriously, I’m not about to sneer at someone else because of their bike or kit. Their choice, my choice.

Safety is relative obviously, but I tell myself I have reduced as many risks as I can. Those risks include knowing that my wheels, frame, etc. are ok, well as much as I can within I reason and Australian standards, etc. I reckon that I (and many I ride with) are far more safety conscious because they are riders. That usually means not taking silly risks, in my case riding on a frame I don’t know anything about.

The argument about chasing cheaper products at any ‘cost’, simply by arguing that we pay too much for ‘the brand’ (marketing bulltish to some), is a much bigger issue for me. I don’t want a 10 year old kid in Asia or India to sleep under his sewing machine in between doing 14 hour shifts just so I can wear the latest Nikes.

You know what?  - maybe the point has been missed here.  Sure there are no name ‘cheap’ frames, and as expressed in this article there are legitimate reasons why they are indeed ‘cheaper.’  

However the point missed is why are quality brand-name frames in Australia often 100% more expensive than the same frames essentially sold anywhere else in the developed world?

I mean China and Taiwan is a lot closer to OZ than the US or Europe and bike sales in Melbourne alone are as big as many European cities….

In the end I shopped on the web…

Looks to me to be lots of frames driven into garage roofs, hit by cars, etc.

Unconvinced you’re adding anything to your argument, but you have convinced yourself. That makes one of us.

3 snapped frames you say?

Hmmm

We could go down that never ending debate of why things are more expensive in Aus and come out none the wiser. We’ve talked about this many times before:  http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2010/08/lbs-follow-up/

We could go down that never ending debate of why things are more expensive in Aus and come out none the wiser. We’ve talked about this many times before:  http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2010/08/lbs-follow-up/

In the end it is all a trust game. do we trust the big name brands as endorsed (by the fact that they ride them for their team) by the PRO’s and the expensive advertising campaigns with huge claims (weight claims for example which are often un true) of superior frames?
Or do we trust the small artisan builders’ (I dont mean midgets) frames which will not be lab tested?

By using the no brand frames mentioned here where are we placing our trust? thats the point, we dont know. Buying a big name brand is like buying insurance really – we hope that it takes the guessing game out of the equation and that should anything happen we are covered.

Personally, I trust the artisan with tried and tested steel – this is based on reputation and my ignorance but I feel comfortable with my choices and that must count for a lot.

There are problems with the way they use that test rig though. I was the one who actually designed the first version to which Pete Teschner, I think, modified the design slightly to make it easier to manufacture. The rear drop outs are clamped rigidly which does not allow the frame to flex more naturally, so in effect it is really only testing chainstay stiffness. The way a frame flexes naturally will never be achieved in the frame flex test jig anyway so as much as it looks fancy and scientific. The big thing that affects the way a bike rides or feels are all the components and wheels strapped on. Some wheels ride softer than others and some components are much better at absorbing road buzz etc. The only real way of testing frames against frames is to use the exact same kit every time with the tyres at the same pressure and the bikes all boxed up so you have no predetermined ‘feelings’ frame brand name association. But where is the fun in doing that?

As far as cheap no name brands compared to high end brands it is plainly shown the act of assembling a carbon frame does not cost much at all. The using the correct materials, the engineering behind a proper design and the QC it takes to maintain the the standard does take a little extra. I think what most people object to is that it doesn’t cost thousands of dollars to engineer and QC each frame with the number of units that are manufacturing. Lets face it we are not talking about engineering budgets trying to be recouped with a few hundred frames. These guys are selling tens of thousands.

Personally I would trust frames from companies like Trigon, PedalForce, Hasa etc. but I think I would baulk and no namers off eBay.

I’m not sure of the documentary, however my impression is carbon generally is used in smaller capacities rather than constructing a complete plane and this space race may be a one off? With my zero-knowledge on the subject I’d still think carbon lay ups of large areas would be difficult.

Re standards, I’m not sure what the AUST/NZ standard(s) are without paying for it, however the points outlined in this article (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/988720) may share a few things.

As for the standard sticker itself, there is a requirement for it to be shown on packaged goods at a certain type size, however in Australia I’m not sure if it needs to be displayed on the bicycle itself. Generally you will find a Patent number on the bicycle, which of course manufacturer worldwide Intellectual Property costs such patents & designs will also add to the cost of a bicycle.

Also, the Australian Trade Practices Act has been ammended to the Competition and Consumer Act, with new legislation effective 1 July in particular concerning warranty, so this may have an impact on retailers and importers also.

I’ve just downloaded and was going to read through it to see what the standards actually say in regard to frames and forks, amongst other things. It’s one thing to say it passes a standard but knowing what the standard actually is is what qualifies the comment.

He is an outline to the standard that everyone would be able to read at least…

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=323670&nodeId=d1fd0101ee1de2325d6d158ff9e75432&fn=Product%20safety%20guide%20-%20pedal%20bicycles.pdf

Thanks interesting reading, this seems to be a notice/overview by the ACCC covering points from the Australian/New Zealand standard AS/NZS 1927:1998 and the safety and warranty issues the ACCC expects from business.

The actual standard itself will need to be purchased from Designs Australia.

Oops sorry just re-read your post. Would be great to read the actual standard.

send me your email and I’ll send it to you. seandoyle71 at bigpond dot com

The Australian standard only use a front loading static test, very basic and does not spell out how a frame shall be constructed, materials, weight, strength etc.  In their words…

‘The dynamic test ISO 4210 have not been included in this Standard . The static tests are considered adequate.’

I am unsure what ISO 4210 says as it costs $175 and I’m not that interested in it. The rest of the Australian standard is about geometry, braking performance and wheel strength (again pretty basic test) and sharp edges, component projections etc.

So to say that you buy a frame based on it passing the AS/NZS 1927:2010 standard really means nothing. What you are looking for is that the engineers have designed the frame with a reasonable margin for the intended use and that the factory has in place and adequate audit/QC system that ensures that the products are made to reflect the engineers design. Goes the same for the big name companies. Has anyone ponyed up and asked what control system they have in place to ensure the product is up to scratch or do you take it on their word they QC adequately?

But maybe they have! In the latest issue there is the Kyklos bike $14999 worth of it……… the frame if anyone has bothered to look, looks very similar to cyfac, teschner, RITTE! RITTE openly advertise where their frame comes from and these guys (kyklos) , are they trying to claim it’s italian made by having an italian website? I’d suggest open mould and they are trying to fool us!

But the thing is we all know the big players only sample test, meaning that a “select” number of frames are tested (1/10 if you’re lucky?) and then if all is well on that frame the following 9 are shipped out. If they tested every frame  you would be getting something that is clapped out. So what I’m saying here is that you “Just don’t know” what you are getting regardless of brand. One frame might pass but the rest might be failures! As for warranties on frames, I’ve heard (grapevine) that some frames are scanned with Ultrasound to check for internal delamination. On the surface things may look like a paint crack but internally there is nothing but fibre mush. Patents do not constitute a AUS standard….Just like helmets from OS are not Aus Standard if they don’t have the sticker even though the helmet is patented worldwide like a $350 Giro Ionos which you can buy for $100 OS. Same same but different because of the sticker.

[...] karbona” pirc?ja jaut?jumiem pied?v?jam jums izlas?t visnota? satur?gu rakstu ŠEIT (“Are All Carbon Bikes Created Equal?” by Cycling Tips). Diemž?l, tas ir ang?u valod?, ta?u pie?auju, ka tie no jums, kas v?las ko t?du [...]

This is exactly what puzzles me. Since virtually all (mass produced) frames come from Asia because they have the manufacturing know-how and it is said that they have low copyright restrictions what is the difference between the “originals” and the “rip offs”? Are the rip offs products that just barely didn’t make the quality check or “overproduction” for personal gains? And if it is the latter, then the engineering is the same, the QC control should be the same, since they already doing it and I can imagine that breaking the production chain and creating more coordination and logistics to be more costly than just continuing the work, it comes down to the materials. Is it the same material or is cheaper material used? 
Because if they are off the exact same production with the same materials and the same QC and engineering but without a name, why should they be worse? I understand one doesn’t hast to pay for the engineering, since that is stolen but surely that alone cannot make the whole price difference, can it?
So what could speak against the quality of those rip offs? 

It would likely be 1 in 100 or if they use three sigma style of QC checking it could be more. I’m not aware of any frame manufacturer using three sigma though. I don’t fully understand the maths behind the system (I fell asleep every time the teacher meantioned statistics) but it is used a lot in the climbing gear industry and where product failure would most likely cause very serious injury or death. Much like a fork breaking. Go figure.

I hear ya!

Funny, my first (and only) second hand purchase was a Cervelo S2. I purchased locally from a well known Melbourne cyclist, I should have known something was up when I purchased it but after a very close inspection on purchase (I’m very anal) I decided to go ahead and it wasn’t till I took it home I found there was a manufacturing defect.  The defect was in the fitting of the seat post into the seat tube, meaning it was not a snug fit. The post knocked after running over less than a smooth surface. My concern was if this wasn’t fitting correctly, when would the knock and my weight split the seat tube.

I contacted Cervelo CA and they described the defect as being the ‘tolerance’ was out in the seat tube (not a snug fit) but would not cover under warranty as I was not the original purchaser. Given Cervelo’s aero tubing it was’nt going to be an as easy fix as a round tube, but fortunately a good LBS mechanic, whom had not seen this problem before and tried multiple seat posts with the same result, added a shim and some carbon paste to create a tighter fit and prevented the tube and post from knocking (so far).

My point is, this was a manufacturing fault, not one brought on by miscellaneous owners, and in my opinion Cervelo CA should have honoured the warranty (and it would have been in Cervelo’s best interests to replace). Admittedly I never contacted Cervelo AUS (whom I understand have a great warranty dept) and yes I could pursue through Australian consumer law but who, what, where, became too hard. So as a long term Cervelo loyalist (x3) it left a bitter taste in my mouth and left me wondering …. how could a seat tube with a tolerance such as this slip through a brand like Cervelo’s Q&A?

I’m not sure of many companies whom would test any product individually. I guess as Sean points out, testing every bike would slow production and add substantially to the cost of the bike, and once tested, would there be a wear and tear factor to that new purchase? As for the Patent, I hear what you’re saying and yes it has no relevance to the standard, was just trying to highlight what markings you may find on a product and also how a Patent may contribute to the overall cost of a bike.

Damn, now you’ve got me thinking again about a paint crack :)

I hear ya!

Funny, my first (and only) second hand purchase was a Cervelo S2. I purchased locally from a well known Melbourne cyclist, I should have known something was up when I purchased it but after a very close inspection on purchase (I’m very anal) I decided to go ahead and it wasn’t till I took it home I found there was a manufacturing defect.  The defect was in the fitting of the seat post into the seat tube, meaning it was not a snug fit. The post knocked after running over less than a smooth surface. My concern was if this wasn’t fitting correctly, when would the knock and my weight split the seat tube.

I contacted Cervelo CA and they described the defect as being the ‘tolerance’ was out in the seat tube (not a snug fit) but would not cover under warranty as I was not the original purchaser. Given Cervelo’s aero tubing it was’nt going to be an as easy fix as a round tube, but fortunately a good LBS mechanic, whom had not seen this problem before and tried multiple seat posts with the same result, added a shim and some carbon paste to create a tighter fit and prevented the tube and post from knocking (so far).

My point is, this was a manufacturing fault, not one brought on by miscellaneous owners, and in my opinion Cervelo CA should have honoured the warranty (and it would have been in Cervelo’s best interests to replace). Admittedly I never contacted Cervelo AUS (whom I understand have a great warranty dept) and yes I could pursue through Australian consumer law but who, what, where, became too hard. So as a long term Cervelo loyalist (x3) it left a bitter taste in my mouth and left me wondering …. how could a seat tube with a tolerance such as this slip through a brand like Cervelo’s Q&A?

I’m not sure of many companies whom would test any product individually. I guess as Sean points out, testing every bike would slow production and add substantially to the cost of the bike, and once tested, would there be a wear and tear factor to that new purchase? As for the Patent, I hear what you’re saying and yes it has no relevance to the standard, was just trying to highlight what markings you may find on a product and also how a Patent may contribute to the overall cost of a bike.

Damn, now you’ve got me thinking again about a paint crack :)

I hear ya!

Funny, my first (and only) second hand purchase was a Cervelo S2. I purchased locally from a well known Melbourne cyclist, I should have known something was up when I purchased it but after a very close inspection on purchase (I’m very anal) I decided to go ahead and it wasn’t till I took it home I found there was a manufacturing defect.  The defect was in the fitting of the seat post into the seat tube, meaning it was not a snug fit. The post knocked after running over less than a smooth surface. My concern was if this wasn’t fitting correctly, when would the knock and my weight split the seat tube.

I contacted Cervelo CA and they described the defect as being the ‘tolerance’ was out in the seat tube (not a snug fit) but would not cover under warranty as I was not the original purchaser. Given Cervelo’s aero tubing it was’nt going to be an as easy fix as a round tube, but fortunately a good LBS mechanic, whom had not seen this problem before and tried multiple seat posts with the same result, added a shim and some carbon paste to create a tighter fit and prevented the tube and post from knocking (so far).

My point is, this was a manufacturing fault, not one brought on by miscellaneous owners, and in my opinion Cervelo CA should have honoured the warranty (and it would have been in Cervelo’s best interests to replace). Admittedly I never contacted Cervelo AUS (whom I understand have a great warranty dept) and yes I could pursue through Australian consumer law but who, what, where, became too hard. So as a long term Cervelo loyalist (x3) it left a bitter taste in my mouth and left me wondering …. how could a seat tube with a tolerance such as this slip through a brand like Cervelo’s Q&A?

I’m not sure of many companies whom would test any product individually. I guess as Sean points out, testing every bike would slow production and add substantially to the cost of the bike, and once tested, would there be a wear and tear factor to that new purchase? As for the Patent, I hear what you’re saying and yes it has no relevance to the standard, was just trying to highlight what markings you may find on a product and also how a Patent may contribute to the overall cost of a bike.

Damn, now you’ve got me thinking again about a paint crack :)

I think it’s come down to what the market has accepted to pay for a high end road bike. Have a look at at price point of say around $3000. For a road bike you’ll get decent carbon frame with maybe Ultegra. Look at a mountain bike at that price point. It can have a carbon frame or quality Al. and similar level of components, XT, but it also has disc brakes and suspension. A crap load more technology, engineering, material and manufacturing than the road bike. The market, ie consumer has kind of accepted what you pay and that’s what they sell for. The new car market is in a similar situation in Australia. IMO.

Thank you for a great article.

I personally own and race one of these carbon TT frames. It has yet to explode under me at high speeds, it’s stiff as hell too, but there are some downsides. As-well, I would agree that “you just don’t know”, I researched my seller and frame model, looked for reviews online, they were all positive so I pulled the trigger.

Would I purchase another? Probably not, I had a need and it filled it. if I had the funds available I would have probably gone with Felt or a used P3C. Reason being, that not only do I love to ride and compete, but I also appreciate workmanship and a well finished frame (the cost involved in getting a big brand TT frame was prohibitive for me at the time – I do however own a “USA” CAAD9 and the finishing is lovely).

 To say that a no name carbon frame is equal to one made by a bigger name is downright crazy (and there are MANY users on the boards that will say this) the finishing touches and workmanship just aren’t there. Neither is a warranty or a proper fit, as-well the geometry can be a little fickle on these.

Thank you for a great article.

I personally own and race one of these carbon TT frames. It has yet to explode under me at high speeds, it’s stiff as hell too, but there are some downsides. As-well, I would agree that “you just don’t know”, I researched my seller and frame model, looked for reviews online, they were all positive so I pulled the trigger.

Would I purchase another? Probably not, I had a need and it filled it. if I had the funds available I would have probably gone with Felt or a used P3C. Reason being, that not only do I love to ride and compete, but I also appreciate workmanship and a well finished frame (the cost involved in getting a big brand TT frame was prohibitive for me at the time – I do however own a “USA” CAAD9 and the finishing is lovely).

 To say that a no name carbon frame is equal to one made by a bigger name is downright crazy (and there are MANY users on the boards that will say this) the finishing touches and workmanship just aren’t there. Neither is a warranty or a proper fit, as-well the geometry can be a little fickle on these.

the ‘verite’ frame is the exact same frame being sold unbranded by the most popular resellers of this ‘dangerous chinese carbon’

the ‘verite’ frame is the exact same frame being sold unbranded by the most popular resellers of this ‘dangerous chinese carbon’

you are ruining the marketing fear machine by posting this factual information, please refrain from posting this so called useful information in future. clearly these photos are staged.

you are ruining the marketing fear machine by posting this factual information, please refrain from posting this so called useful information in future. clearly these photos are staged.

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Quality cost more period. A lot of un evolved thinkers claim that pro riders ride what they are paid to ride…this is true to some degree, but top riders would never risk their careers or their results with an unproven manufacturer. There is just way too much glory, fame amd money to risk. I for one would never go down a mountain pass on a no name chinese frame…i just dont have the confidence to risk life and limb on the manufacturing practice from a 12 year old employee on her 2nd week of employment and been working 11th hour straight without a lunch break…

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I humbly disagree. In CAO tests the part is supposed to work a certain way. But, quite often the end result is different than the one predicted by the software. So you remake the part changing layups until it fits the predicted result and thus work within design parameters. Quite often an engineer with a very good intuition on how materials will act, will beat the boffins that simulate it.

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A great thread and some valid comments here. Let me shed some insight into the world of carbon fibre.

1. The most import component is the fibre itself. The Japanese have perfected it and the Taiwanese manufacture some decent product.
2. The monocoque process is the most rigid and sort after by manufacturers due to its structural benefits.
3. China and Taiwan are not chosen because of their cheap labour. They are the world leaders in this technology.
4. China and Taiwan are not cheap places to manufacture anything. Look out for the Vietnamese exodus.
5. The factories in china are better than the factories Europe. The volumes they produce call for the best German machinery available.
6. Chinese and Taiwanese companies manufacture just about every brand out there.
7. The Chinarello factor is minimal. How many do you see out there? People including manufacturers don’t like seeing fakes out there.
8. The bicycle industry is one of the largest for these countries and their authorities police the heavily.
9. The Chinese in particular are quality conscious and know that quality = volume = profit.
10. No carbon fibre bike is made in one piece. Sections are glued together with bonding agents stronger that steel.
11. Open mold frames are fantastic, as the democratise the industry and let competitors enter the market with no development costs.
12. Cavendish would ride just as good on an open mold frame as he would on his blah, blah blah
13. Open mold frames are made as good as if not better than some of the high end frames
14. Carbon, titanium, steel, kevlar whatever will all snap and break under certain conditions
15. Open mold frames are as stiff and light as the best our there
16. Don’t be fooled, if a factory decides to make you one frame which is highly unlikley, it will cost you about $800 to get it into the country. By the way, these factories wont make you just one.
17. It costs approx 80K to design, test, create a mold and start producing 1 design
18. The big brands would be buying their frames at half the price you could get an open mold for
19. That is 1000% markup
20. In conclusion, wake up everyone, globalisation brought this to you. You’re all bargain hunters at heart. Go with the flow.

PS: I do this stuff for a living.

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